Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub/2013 (additional)

Extra archive page for 2013
It was proving unreliable to sweep content to the 2013 archive page. This was because the page was so big and additions required the saving of the entire page each and every time. After all 2013 conversations have been swept, this van be merged back with the main archive page Andrewssi2 (talk) 04:29, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

District Template and Section Question
Does the structure of this article does conform to Sections and Template guidelines; Specifically the See subsections:
 * Landmarks
 * Museums
 * Churches and cathedrals
 * Institutions of learning
 * Monuments

If it does, I'll use it for some other district articles.

Also, why does the TOC not appear in this article? --TheMightyHercules (talk) 23:48, 27 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I guess sections are OK if the destination really has many things to see. TOC is visible as a single line within the banner at the top. Nicolas1981 (talk) 03:03, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Sections are definitely OK when there's a lot to see. How many and which ones you want depends on the kind of sights there are in the district. Check out some of our star district articles, like San_Francisco/Chinatown-North_Beach, Paris/1st_arrondissement or Chicago/Bronzeville. I actually think institutions of learning should only be listed under see when their buildings have architectural or other "passive attraction" value. Otherwise, they should probably go in a separate "Learn" section after "Do". JuliasTravels (talk) 17:21, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Just as a tiny sidenote, I believe that "learn" fits more in the city-level articles than district-level ones. People generally choose to settle in a city for a longer time to learn, not in a particular district, as oftentimes travelling from one district of a city to another for instruction is not impossible. PrinceGloria (talk) 19:54, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * We don't generally list things that require one to "settle" to do. Most Learn listings should be for things like a one-day cooking class or a week-long language course. No reason those should be featured on the main city page. Texugo (talk) 19:57, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, for now those sections are filled with advice on long-term learning, universities and such, so I thought this is how they are meant to be used. The short-term learning options would be much more limited in choice, I presume, and I do not believe this is tied to a particular location within a city - you usually need to commit a few hours in a row, if not a full day, or a few hours over consecutive days or weeks to learn anything. This means that this advice should not be grouped with tourist attractions, which generally work around the principle of "while you're there, why don't you also see this/do this/eat there". Participating in a learning experience requires a different level of planning and it in turn would rarely be tied to a particular district one would discover, but rather a city one plans to spend a longer time in. PrinceGloria (talk) 22:01, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That is no stronger an argument for putting them on the main article than it would be for putting hotels there. Things are featured/summarized on the main page because of their importance to the overall experience of the city, not because of the overall city experience's importance to them individually. Texugo (talk) 22:18, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Going back a little bit, I don't completely agree with what Texugo said upthread. While travellers might not have much need to know how to enroll in long-term classes in a city they're visiting for only a brief period, I find that providing brief bits of general information about area colleges and universities is a good way to give readers a better idea of the overall identity or "feel" of a city. This is especially true, I think, for district articles of Huge Cities—even more so when the district in question contains a large university that's a major component of its distinct identity, e.g. Buffalo/Elmwood Village. This information probably should not be in the form of listings, however. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:50, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I was not so much giving a personal opinion as a reflection of the traditional advice on the subject. While I agree with you that in some cases, a brief mention of local universities might have cultural relevance, I think those are the exceptions to the general rule - describing the community colleges of the typical small-to-medium size town is largely irrelevant and unneeded. In any case, they should not be See listings unless there is something actually worthwhile to see on campus, and should not be Learn listings unless they actually do offer something short-term that is available and might be interesting for a traveller. A brief prose description in the Understand section (or, more likely, a mention in relation to college nightlife areas) is fine, if it is truly relevant to the identity of the city. Random info about Cumbersome County Community College or Bumpkin River Technical School should be broadly discouraged. Texugo (talk) 00:13, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree completely with Texugo. Unfortunately, we've let articles go (and even feature/star them) with excessive information in their Learn sections, which causes the error to proliferate. We should probably be making that a point of emphasis in nomination discussions going forward.  LtPowers (talk) 01:05, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Even if we don't put it in the "Learn" section, I maintain that this information can and should be included somewhere. Again, it may not serve the traveller to know how to enroll in semester-long university classes in a city s/he won't be located in for nearly that long, but it certainly does serve the traveller to better acquaint him/herself with the identity of the place s/he chose to visit. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:17, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with Andre's point, and I'd also say that in the case of college towns like Clinton (New York), it would be ridiculous not to give a link to the local college's website, because even if the college had no architectural significance and didn't host cultural events that might interest people not studying or employed by the college, it's pretty much the only game in town. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:30, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

[indent reset] I agree with most of what's been said above. I firmly believe the info on the town's character as an university town should go into "understand" rather than a separate section, plus a mention of a "seeable" / "visitable" establishment of an educational institution should go into either "see" or "do", depending on the character of the institution. I find it an unusual case when there is anything to "learn" that is not simply a "do" and merits a separate section, and I would still maintain most of it will be better dealth with on the city level of larger cities, much as it will be better to list embassies, hospitals or airports on the city level than confine them to district and deprive the city level of that information. Which does not mean that individual district articles should not contain mentions of such in their "understand" or "orientation" sections if the placement of the city-unique services/institutions within those districts affects their characters or orientation within them. PrinceGloria (talk) 05:45, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * In really huge cities, I think that while examples of institutions of learning are worth briefly mentioning, actual entries for them normally belong in district articles. For example, there are a lot of concerts and lectures at the New School University, and those should be listed with a link to the New School's Events Calendar in the Manhattan/West Village article (I'm not sure if they are), not the Manhattan article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:06, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * This look an awful lot like a "Do" to me. We don't have separate category for "Sports", so why would we need a separate category for "doing" things in educational institutions. Those are all "do". If there is a lot of things to "do" in a districts, we're doing pretty well with third-level headings. PrinceGloria (talk) 09:47, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * You may well be right. I guess the only issue I have is whether it's worth whatever extra work it would make to eliminate all the "Learn" subtitles and move most of the entries to "Do," plus some to "See." Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:51, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Let's just refrain from putting any more "Learn" sections to newly-created and expanded articles, and we can deal with the extant one as we go, on a case-by-case basis. There's a lot of cleanup to do and quite a few of us are actually doing this as we speak, as long as we agree to do this that way (and not add to the problem by creating new "Learn" sections) it will be dealt with in due course. PrinceGloria (talk) 10:15, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I haven't checked, but there may be some article templates showing an optional "Learn" subtitle that would need to be deleted if there is a consensus behind that. Also, Where you can stick it may need to be checked. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:27, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I am very happy to stop using 'Learn' sections. I find that people often want to list universities which isn't actually relevant traveler information. (Unless the university is worth visiting, such as Heidelberg, but then it should be listed under 'see') I think specific courses (cooking, language learning etc) are still good things to have however. Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:30, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It is true that the purpose of the Learn section is often misunderstood not only as a place to list universities, colleges and even public schools, but also as a section to list random trivia the reader might want to know or even resources for "learning more" about the destination. Not quite sure how I feel about all the work it would take to deprecate it though. Texugo (talk) 11:58, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Even where a course of study is a few weeks (like Chicoutimi-Jonquière, the Collège du Jonquière is well-known to Ottawa swivel servants for a three-week intensive French as a second language programme with no students from the local area) the brief mention of the school in "understand" with the rest of the industrial history of the town (pulp/paper, aluminium) is enough. A "learn" section would add little.
 * Yes, a school could legitimately end up dominating an article if a huge university is in an otherwise small town. An article on "State College PA" would be incomplete without turning Paterno's statue 180 degrees "so that he can look away and turn a blind eye to the Sandusky affair" if that school and team are the town's most notable landmarks. Nonetheless, info like "Normal IL was named for a 'normal school' or state teacher's college" belongs in "Understand" and the campus itself (if architecturally notable or home to museums or concert halls) likely is "See" (with any specific activities there "Do"). We don't need "Learn" as another section as the school is described as seen by travellers, not temporary four-year resident students. K7L (talk) 14:50, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not only universities though. One question is whether we want to stick an open university lecture series, a cooking school, a wine and cheese pairing class, a local crafts workshop, and 5 Spanish conversation schools together in a single subsection of Do. Texugo (talk) 15:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm of the opinion that there isn't much practical distinction between 'learn' and 'do'. I'm thinking 'Learn' should become deprecated in that it remains valid for existing articles and for new articles where there exist a lot of learning opportunities (as in your list). However it should not actually be required for new articles, or for old articles that people wish to refresh without it. Would such an approach be too vague for WV? Andrewssi2 (talk) 15:27, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Personally, if the article template is to be changed in such a manner, I would really rather not just do it halfway. And actually, I think the Do section is already often overburdened with subsections (Parks, Theater, Music, Sports, Festivals, Events, Beaches, Hiking trails, organized tours, boating excursions, train rides, etc., etc.). I think taking a course in something is a different enough type of activity that we can leave it alone. Just because it is technically doing something doesn't mean it has to go in Do. After all, drinking, clubbing, doing laundry, and using the internet are also "activities" but we don't need to put everything in Do. Texugo (talk) 16:18, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Trains and boats are "get around" if used as transportation, the one exception being the sightseeing circle tour with no means to disembark at other than the original departure point. The "food, fuel, lodging" categories are more infrastructure than entertainment (gotta "Eat" and "Sleep" somewhere) and "laundry" seems to be more often a footnote within a listing in some other category (campsites in particular) than a stand-alone laundrette. "Wi-fi" is heading the same way as it's turning up too extensively in coffee shops, hotel/motels and public libraries; the stand-alone "Internet café" is dying. I'd hesitate to use the continued existence of "Connect" to justify "Learn" as a section (instead of a subsection) as "Connect"'s days may be numbered now that wi-fi is seemingly everywhere in most beaten-path destinations. If anything, "Events" are more worthy of a section than a subsection (as every little town has at least one annual tourist festival) while "Learn" should be demoted to a subsection of "Do" or dropped outright. If "ride a horse" is Do, "learn to ride a horse" should also be "Do" as they're almost the same activity. Where you can stick it and the article templates do need to change in order to deprecate this as a section for new articles, even if nothing is immediately done about the existing mess. Too much learning is outside our scope (ie: multi-year diploma and degree programmes) and what's left is merely one activity among many at a destination. K7L (talk) 21:38, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Help pages clean up
I've been trying to clean up the formatting on the Irish pages for a while now. The biggest problem I have is following the manual of style pages. I find them hard to remember, scan and long-winded. Therefore I've tried to come up with my own version of the time and date format page that I think is easier to use.

Some things I've tried to improve:
 * Large bold examples. This is to make it easier to scan the page quickly. You should be able to tell how to do most formatting from the examples alone, without having to read the text.
 * Correct examples only. I've only ever used correct examples. If you see an example on the page, you know you can use it. This also helps keep the page shorter.
 * Short. I've tried to keep the page and notes as short as possible. It shouldn't need a "This page in a nutshell" box at the top. I also got rid of the introductory paragraph at the top which doesn't actually say anything.
 * Consistent formatting. I've tried to make the page as consistent as possible. For instance, all the examples are always shown on the left, instead of a random position in a sentence. This should help people quickly scan the examples to find the one they are looking for.

The new version is at Time and date formats/New version.

46.7.249.24 20:47, 2 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Personally I don't like the large font. I haven't considered the rest - the font size is too overpowering. If you are willing to try normal size I would take another look. Otherwise I would not see it replacing the existing page - although you could keep it for use by yourself and others who like it as an alternative. Good on you for trying an improvement though. Nurg (talk) 00:01, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I do prefer this page, in terms of its conciseness and cleanliness, especially with the consistent formatting to see examples on the left and further explanation on the right. The bad examples are always confusing. What do others think? -- torty3 (talk) 00:09, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it would helpful to have some form of cheatsheet if people find it useful. Would creating such a page at Cheatsheet/Time and date formats and Cheatsheet/Listings be ok? -- torty3 (talk) 23:39, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a reasonable idea to me. My only two concerns would be: 1) keeping the number of these "cheatsheets" small so it doesn't create extra work to keep them in sync with the policy pages and 2) that these "cheatsheets" should be lists of examples taken from the main policy page or some other concise version of info already on the policy page, and not be used to create alternatives to established policy. -- Ryan &bull; (talk) &bull; 23:51, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Alice's proposal

 * Alice has e-mailed me to say she is not currently have a technical possibility to post this message without compromising her password (keyloggers in Internet cafes, etc), but asks that I do so on her behalf:
 * "I (and others) have noticed the good work you've been doing with our Irish articles in adding lots of useful information, kicking them into our special listings format and making the formatting consistent and readable - so a special thanks for that!
 * I also agree with your basic premise that we should try and make our MoS pages easier to understand and remember. In this regard, unless it compromises comprehension, I think it's best to
 * 1) have as few exceptions as possible
 * 2) start with the most general cases first
 * 3) try to follow world-wide standards where they exist
 * 4) in listings, abbreviate to the shortest possible form unless it compromises comprehension
 * 5) Be consistent in temporal formatting. Most human brains find it easier if there are consistent rules. I think that we should list the larger periods of time first and then the steadily smaller durations. eg:


 * when combining days or months with time, put the years, seasons and months first, then days of the week and finally the times eg: May-Sep M-F 10:00-14:00 rather than 10:00-14:00 M-F May-Sep .
 * when listing alternative date ranges (for example, seasonal opening hours) separate the alternatives with a semi-colon eg: Hall of Mirrors 3 May-8 Sep M-Sa 08:30-18:00; 9 Sep-2 May Th-Sa 10:30-16:00. Horror Maze 2013 Summer M-Sa 08:30-18:00; Oct-Feb F-Sa 10:30-13:00; 2014 Summer M-Sa 08:30-19:15;
 * for all seven days, use Daily . Do not use "every day" or "Su-Sa". eg: Jun-Sep daily 08:30-11:00, 12:30-18:00


 * I like the way that you have dropped the unnecessary (and confusing for newbies non-breaking HTML) space between the amount and the unit.
 * Consequently, I would much prefer if we changed the phrase at Measurements of Except for measurements of temperature and voltage, we have a mild preference for separating the number from its associated unit by a single space, but: to:
 * We have a mild preference for not separating the number from its associated unit, but:
 * I also think that, in listings especially, we can shorten the current abbreviation for hour/hours of hr to h so that we would see "N'Boli Airport is 42km (1.5h) drive since in some places you'll have to drive at less than 30km/h on the potholed roads".
 * Thanks for giving some thought to issues of style and formatting and for greatly improving our Irish articles! Alice".
 * --118.93.67.66 04:08, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * A proposal to change Measurements would be better raised at Wikivoyage_talk:Measurements. Nurg (talk) 22:04, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I absolutely agree, Nurg. However, there have been occasions in the past when, after consensus has been reached on the specialised and appropriate policy discussion page, somebody then popped up and reverted the change on the grounds that they had not noticed the earlier discussion. --118.93nzp (talk) 22:13, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I'd just like to point out that I was not only the messenger boy in posting the quote above - I also find nothing objectionable about "Alice's proposal".

I particularly liked the part about "have as few exceptions as possible" in our MoS and its application to tdf. Her proposal to "list the larger periods of time first and then the steadily smaller durations" would be particularly helpful now that our wonderful new listings editor often puts the digits of opening times immediately after the digits of a telephone number, and would save having to make customised edits such as this one where is obviously marginally less confusing to those readers using non colour screens (such as the paper white screens found on e-readers) than our current recommendation of
 * --118.93nzp (talk) 22:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Why can't Alice just use an IP if she is worried about keyloggers? I'm a bit reluctant to evaluate a proposal given by a person who isn't prepared to step up and discuss it.  I think we should place this on hold until Alice is available to discuss the merits, explain and (if necessary) defend her proposal. --Inas (talk) 03:14, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm scratching my head with respect to the reference about the listing editor. The listing template as it is, is mostly the same as it has been for years, nothing to do with anything new. -- torty3 (talk) 03:34, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Introducting Beta Features
(Apologies for writing in English. Please translate if necessary)

We would like to let you know about Beta Features, a new program from the Wikimedia Foundation that lets you try out new features before they are released for everyone.

Think of it as a digital laboratory where community members can preview upcoming software and give feedback to help improve them. This special preference page lets designers and engineers experiment with new features on a broad scale, but in a way that's not disruptive.

Beta Features is now ready for testing on MediaWiki.org. It will also be released on Wikimedia Commons and MetaWiki this Thursday, 7 November. Based on test results, the plan is to release it on all wikis worldwide on 21 November, 2013.

Here are the first features you can test this week:
 * Media Viewer — view images in large size or full screen
 * VisualEditor Formulæ (for wikis with VisualEditor) — edit algebra or equations on your pages
 * Typography Refresh — make text more readable (coming Thursday)

Would you like to try out Beta Features now? After you log in on MediaWiki.org, a small 'Beta' link will appear next to your 'Preferences'. Click on it to see features you can test, check the ones you want, then click 'Save'. Learn more on the Beta Features page.

After you've tested Beta Features, please let the developers know what you think on this discussion page -- or report any bugs here on Bugzilla. You're also welcome to join this IRC office hours chat on Friday, 8 November at 18:30 UTC.

Beta Features was developed by the Wikimedia Foundation's Design, Multimedia and VisualEditor teams. Along with other developers, they will be adding new features to this experimental program every few weeks. They are very grateful to all the community members who helped create this project — and look forward to many more productive collaborations in the future.

Enjoy, and don't forget to let developers know what you think! Keegan (WMF) (talk) 19:48, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Distributed via Global message delivery (wrong page? Correct it here), 19:48, 5 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I checked this out before, and must say, I like the Media Viewer feature. It would work a charm with our static maps, which are often too small to see when in an article thumbnail. Once they start looking for sitewide tests, I recommend we put our hand up. James A ▪ talk 01:06, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Template:PrintDistricts
This template appears to have been changed unilaterally last month (although I may have missed a discussion). Whilst I am in favour of losing (or at least diminishing) the role of printing in this warning, I'd want to change the new wording to something a little more pithy: perhaps "XXX is a huge city with several district articles which contain information about specific sights, restaurants, and accommodation."

It may also be worth thinking about the SEO impact of changing this common template - the previous wording was exactly the same as its WT counterpart. --Nick talk 02:24, 5 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Your wording is good, Nick and it's also good to always have SEO at the back of our minds until WV is sunk. --118.93.67.66 11:47, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm hoping you meant 'WT' :P And the wording looks fine. James A ▪ talk 11:49, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Aw shucks, my evil plan is revealed by my own Freudian slip. Off to sell my IB shares...  Ibobi 04:15, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Getting that printout
It would be great if there was a simple way of getting a pdf (or printout) of a huge city article together with all its districts. Would it be possible to add a "Download all Districts as PDF" option to the Print/Export section on the left? AlasdairW (talk) 22:49, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Want to try CirrusSearch, MediaWiki's new search engine?
Hello everyone!

We'd like to invite your wiki to be early adopters of our new search feature, CirrusSearch.

CirrusSearch has a lot of advantages over the current search engine LuceneSearch, including:
 * Cirrus can expand templates. so the text of a template that's in an article will be found when searching.
 * Cirrus updates its search index more often. That means changes to articles will be reflected in search results much faster.
 * Cirrus supports different languages better than LuceneSearch. Our other early adopters (e.g. Bengali Wikipedia) have so far been happy with the new search.

If you agree to be early adopters, CirrusSearch will be run alongside the current search, so you can use both old and new search to test CirrusSearch. Eventually, CirrusSearch will be deployed to all wikis and replace the current search. By trying it out earlier, you can help us make it better for everyone, and make sure that it meets your needs. If you'd prefer to wait until we begin deploying it everywhere else, then that's okay too.

If you have any questions, please leave a message on my talk page on mediawiki.org here.

Best regards,

--Dan Garry, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 22:21, 7 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I think this sounds great. I have always been less than happy with our current search function. Texugo (talk) 13:10, 8 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I guess our main concern with templates is listing - where the template doesn't add text beyond that supplied in the parameters, but we do need to have its contents (before or after subsitution, don't care...) appear in any search result. K7L (talk) 04:03, 11 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I am always eager to try new things :-) Please let us know when this is test-deployed here, thanks! Nicolas1981 (talk) 07:05, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I think Dan Garry is probably a bit disappointed that, more than 3 weeks after his original question as to whether we wanted to be early adopters, we still haven't got our act together enough to give him a clear answer.

What's our consensus, please? --118.93nzp (talk) 07:17, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Your thoughts please...
on an issue with a future FTT that has been nagging at me ever since it was nominated.

I'm posting a pointer here because I figure "Bargaining" is likely not a very high-traffic article.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:35, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Another Main Page
Just a quick 'heads up' that another discussion is currently taking place about the future of the site's Main Page that you can read here. Please leave any comments, thoughts or ideas there. --Nick talk 00:05, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

No "Thank" button for the first edit of an article
Hi, everyone. I wanted to thank a user for starting and putting the first post in a Talk article, and I found that there was no "Thank" button for that, so I posted to the user's user talk page. Is this a known issue? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:27, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * For me, it works Mick and I've just send you a "thank" for a page you created. Btw, please try this. --Saqib (talk) 13:03, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know what accounted for the problem, then. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:12, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

User:Rschen7754/The future of Wikivoyage
It's only half-finished, but I think it provides enough relevant stuff. --Rschen7754 23:31, 16 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I haven't read the whole thing, but it seems interesting to be, as a contributor who recently joined from Wikipedia. I find myself wanting to learn more about this community, and what Wikivoyage's strategic plan is for the next few years. Thanks for sharing! Edge3 (talk) 05:32, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Do you mean the future of Wikivoyage in general, or the future of English Wikivoyage? --Alexander (talk) 06:13, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm targeting this to the English Wikivoyage. Other language Wikivoyages have done a much better job at adapting to Wikimedia than this project has. But points on my essay may be relevant to them too. --Rschen7754 06:27, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * It is not true. For example, Russian Wikivoyage never tried to "adapt to Wikimedia". We are not obliged to do this, and it is solely the opinion of Wikipedians that Wikivoyage should look like Wikipedia. In fact, 90% of people from Wikipedia have no idea what a travel guide is (they never traveled and/or never used travel guides). Therefore, following the opinion of Wikipedians is, in general, a very bad idea.
 * Please, do not take it personally, but your essay, even in its draft version, already shows that the development of travel content is by far not the main task of this project, as you see it. This is a very fundamental thing, and I hope sincerely that this attitude will not inflict other language versions of Wikivoyage. --Alexander (talk) 11:15, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Where did I say that I wanted Wikivoyage to look like Wikipedia? And can you please back up your other statements? Finally, the statement "Therefore, following the opinion of Wikipedians is, in general, a very bad idea." is just a stereotype. --Rschen7754 11:22, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, this is how I read your text. You link to Wikipedia policy on Consensus, and you repeatedly mention Wikimedia policies/practices, which originated from English Wikipedia anyway. And there is a very strange claim/allegation that Wikitravel was working against Wikimedia (I am not aware of anyone saying or doing this, except for, perhaps, IB, but they made no serious contribution to WT before the fork).
 * Moreover, you claim that existing policies will trigger the creation of similar content, and WV will never be different from WT. However, things like page banners and dynamic maps that are fully compatible with existing policies disprove this argument. The only thing that I have seen in your text so far is the idea to make Wikivoyage more friendly for Wikipedians, which is basically OK but of relatively low importance compared to traveler-related features, such as maps, PDF export, integration with OSMand, download of individual articles on mobile devices, etc... and the search for new editors among people with real travel experience. They are not people from Wikipedia. They are people from the TA and TT forums, the authors of individual travel blogs. This is the direction we will follow. --Alexander (talk) 17:25, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think you know much about Wikimedia then. The English Wikipedia tends to be the odd one out of the bunch, as many other Wikimedia sites have purposefully chosen to go off in different directions. And here we go with the treating Wikipedians as second-class citizens again, and the stereotyping. "This is the direction we will follow" is incredibly arrogant. --Rschen7754 19:32, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * When I say "we", I mean Russian Wikivoyage, because we have a very solid consensus on that and a very similar opinion about Russian Wikipedia, which is, well, even more peculiar than any other Wikimedia project I am familiar with. If you think my words are arrogant or obnoxious, it is your choice, but I hope most people here understand that the majority of Wikipedians are not experienced travelers. It does not mean they are bad or "second-class citizens", as you say. It simply means that Wikivoyage should draw editors from elsewhere. --Alexander (talk) 19:55, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Page banners and dynamic maps are just window dressing; the content is still the same, especially to a text search engine like Google. And my point is that I've seen way too much of biting newcomers lately, even on the part of admins... and more often than not, they are Wikipedians. We are here to create the best travel guide in the world, and we need everybody we can get to do it. Geography, history, nightlife experts, transportation experts, photographers, copyeditors, template coders, travel experts, vandal fighters etc. all have a function here. We cannot be picky about who we let in and who we do not. --Rschen7754 20:02, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * This illustrates my point. If you ever tried to use Wikivoyage articles, you understand that an article with the coordinates and up-to-date map is many times better than an old WT-style article with a simple list of POIs. Not for Google, but for actual readers and travelers. The Google rank is a completely different issue, but the influx of copyeditors and nightlife experts is also of little help here.
 * Another problem is that you can't draw everyone, you have to make a choice. And if you end up with a crowd of "copyeditors", this will not make a travel wiki any better. --Alexander (talk) 20:18, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I do agree with your sentiment about getting as many people as involved as possible, Rschen7754 - I think it's really important to our long-term survival. I hope you don't mind (cough) this! I agree broadly with your other points as well - the essay is a really good starting point for the issues that we are facing and are going to face. I'd hope that when our 1st WMF birthday swings round in January we can do a full-scale 'state of the wiki' review. --Nick talk 20:34, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Disable "Ref" tags?
We don't use refs on this site, and new users coming from sites like Wikipedia, where refs are required, understandably use the Wiki-language functionality to insert them, creating a mess, with this message shown in big, red letters at the bottom of the page: " Cite error: tags exist, but no, whereas we can't just throw in extra fields to our listings.) And if it were in a consistent, concise format, what would be the advantage? Do you have something in mind to do with our listings that can't be done now, but could if we changed the format? --Bigpeteb (talk) 22:08, 10 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Of course there will always be POIs that require non-machine-readable hours. To answer LtPowers' question: My script finds cases such as: hours="Closed" or hours="jonron49@bigpond.com" (yes, these are in Wikivoyage right now), and cases where the syntax could be improved, such as hours="8 am to 10 pm". Nicolas1981 (talk) 06:42, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

All listings in a CSV
Here is a CSV file of all the listings of the English Wikivoyage: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-SI__O0UX9ob2JLRmNkeE41UEU Enjoy!

I am now working on converting it to the OpenStreetMap format, so that it can be used in apps like OsmAnd. Source code is at https://github.com/nicolas-raoul/wikivoyage2osm Nicolas1981 (talk) 12:55, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

One suggestion, currency converter
I think it would be a good idea to specify the prices of things using a template ( US$5.36 ) and the user could select in some way (in preferences or at the top, where you want) to watch prices in a particular currency, euro for example. The template "currency" would contain a table (updated regularly with a bot) to perform conversions from the original local currency to the currency specified by the user. An easy way is to have the conversion between dollars and all other currencies and make de conversion local currency => dollar => user currency. It's just an idea. Greetings. --Kizar (talk) 22:18, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * This is not a shopping website, prices either in local currency or USD is enough I think. --Saqib (talk) 22:23, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Expressing prices in local currency sounds good, but in U.S. dollars is not a good idea for two reasons. 1) Rates are continually changing and the price may no longer be valid in short time. 2) Not everyone uses USD, I think people from UK should review. --Kizar (talk) 23:02, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Along with images, the weather and dynamic maps, prices are one of the most common things travellers are interested in. There are sites out there that use dynamic converters such as http://dynamicconverter.com/ to allow the choice of showing each and every price in the reader's selection of currency (updated pretty much in real time).
 * You might also be interested in reading this very simplistic discussion from a couple of years back: Wikivoyage_talk:Currency. There was also a more interesting discussion initiated by one of the webmasters of one of the 4WD wiki sites a while ago but I haven't managed to remember where I saw it...
 * Thanks for all the terrific material you have been adding to some of our hispanically connected articles, Kizar! --118.93nzp (talk) 23:56, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi, Kizar, and thanks for presenting an idea that could help readers. However, I think that anyone who wants to find foreign exchange conversions can do so very easily by inputting "foreign exchange rates" into any web browser and then inputting the numbers on that site. Not everything that could help readers is really in scope for this guide, and I don't think we want to include currency conversion tables in every article on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * No, certainly not conversion tables but, in the same way we don't necessarily want to send people off to Google maps (or, at the moment, to Wikipedia), we might want to develop the technical ability to set their user preference to display (a) a secondary contemporary currency conversion {b) choose what that secondary converted currency display should be (in a similar way to the thumbnail display size choice we should be able to offer registered and logged in readers...) --118.93nzp (talk) 01:34, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with you - if someone wants to develop a program that will do that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:50, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Developing such a program is easy, however finding a web service that can provide free, reliable and unlimited calls to current FX rates will be difficult. Of course the rate doesn't have to be up to date in the last hour.
 * I'd suggest we need to be careful to integrate with external services out of our control, since suddenly losing one will impact the quality of this site greatly. Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:57, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Relatively decent currency conversion could probably be done with a template (possibly also requiring some additional Javascript) but getting agreement on the implementation and then implementing it across the site would be a lot of work. I would suggest that this is something that someone could begin drafting a proposal for and add it to the roadmap as a "consider in the future" sort of thing, but given the number of other site issues to address is probably not something that is feasible to implement right now. -- Ryan &bull; (talk) &bull; 03:29, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * How about a user preference and a client-side JavaScript gadget that would load rate data and suffix your preferred currency to each listing price? For instance: JPY1500 (10.6€). Prices that are not machine-readable would be left out, of course. Guessing what currency the user wants is tricky, so we could choose to not show anything until the user sets the preference. Nicolas1981 (talk) 06:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Using Wikidata might be an option, so that this can be shared across language Wikivoyages. --Rschen7754 10:01, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's not necessary to use templates. Just one optional gadget writed in JavaScript to perform text replacements. For example the listing editor change the page content to put the "edit" links in the listings. The program will obtain the exchange rates, search expressions in the text like "5.23 €" or "$2.33" and replace the old text with converted value.
 * The exchange rates can be obtained from this page for free, just need to create a free account to get something like this  and it's really easy to change the format to Javascript array . The JavaScript code could be stored in Wikivoyage, Metawiki, Toolserver... and of course, it can be updated each day by one bot.
 * The gadget just import the .js file and use the array.
 * Example: The user previously defined somewhere he want to see prices in EUR (euro, €). In one article there is the text "1000 JPY" (JPY = Japanese yen). The Javascript code get this text and convert 1000 JPY to 9.74518 USD an then to 7.06396 EUR. The operation is simple (1000 / currency_ex['JPY']) * currency_ex['EUR'] and you get euro. Now replace "1000 JPY" with "7.06 EUR". The other prices in other currencys also will be converted in to euro and the user just see everything in euro without change anything in the article source. --Kizar (talk) 15:03, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Whatever solution we may find, I think it should augment (in parentheses) rather than replace. But at any rate I think this should be thought over a little more. For example, I think it would need to round numbers reasonably. When we have a hotel whose price range is given as "doubles R$60-80", we don't want it to come back with "doubles USD $23.17-31.48". That would be unreasonably specific. Texugo (talk) 14:50, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * If the price in user currency is < 10 round with 2 decimals else, round without decimals. Anyway what I am proposing is that an external gadget which does not alter the current code of the article. If the user has selected in preferences to disable this gadget, he will see the page as it looks now. Even so it is possible that only one symbol is displayed near the price and when you click a small popup appears. --Kizar (talk) 15:03, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * So if something costs $100, you want it to display "JPY 10238"? That's not how rounding and significant figures work.  LtPowers (talk) 20:30, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think that it should display more than 2 significant figures. So the example becomes JPY 10000. Any figures displayed are going to be subject to a change of 2-5% over a few days, and a traveller is going have commission etc to pay. Overall, I am not sure of the benefits of this as, when I am travelling I generally want to see prices in the local currency, so that I get used to the prices I am going to pay. AlasdairW (talk) 22:02, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Language of dynamic maps
I've just returned from some weeks in Asia, including Thailand, and for the first time ever I've found WV guides so complete that I could really use them, and even found them better than my LP book. Quite exiting, actually! However, it has also given me some insights in what (imho) is missing or lacking or less practical in our set-up. One of the main things I found, was that the Thai-language dynamic maps are virtually unusable for me, making me turn to other online apps and my book to find the way. Road signs in major Thai destinations like Chiang Mai are in fact bilingual, including English. That's not only easier to read, it also gives a rough idea of what the name sounds like, which is useful in explaining a taxi or tuk-tuk driver where to go. How does it work? Do we have choices for which language the map uses? Has there been a discussion about this somewhere? JuliasTravels (talk) 15:19, 11 December 2013 (UTC)


 * There is some discussion at Wikivoyage talk:Dynamic maps Expedition. Pashley (talk) 16:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)


 * ...discussion which can be summarized, essentially, as "there's nothing we can do about it". It seems to me that the only viable solution, barring any future developments on OSM's part, is to create and maintain static maps for destinations where the native language is written in a non-Latin script. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:38, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Then that is a misconception which I haven't cleared up or updated. It is essentially part of the WMF's overall plan to have localised OSM maps for all Wikipedias and thus for all Wikivoyages to follow, and the initial target was due at least six months ago but have been continually pushed back due to technical problems on their part. It's possible to have localised maps right now, though there is a very very big difference between a development server (subject to timeouts) and a ready production server, which is why fast load times and steady uptimes have been prioritised instead.
 * A more promising development is that ShareMap has applied and looks likely for a grant, and that would do a whole lot of improvement towards exporting the coordinates of Wikivoyage listings together with OSM SVG files for customisation in Inkscape (ie creating and maintaining static maps). Please understand that every single latitude/longitude added will bring static maps for all articles closer to reality, and if dynamic maps help people to visualise and add them, then great! Which is why it isn't as simple as saying static maps good, dynamic maps bad or vice versa. -- torty3 (talk) 17:22, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for clearing that up, torty3. I eagerly await further information about this. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:22, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Phone syntax checks
I have found a huge number of phone numbers that do not comply with our phone syntax.

I don't expect anyone to go fix them all. Human time is best spent on latitudes/longitudes, which is a smaller list where human judgement is needed.

But anyway, here are the phone numbers, hopefully it can give some people ideas about how to deal with them: page2 page3 page4

Cheers! Nicolas1981 (talk) 08:18, 11 December 2013 (UTC)


 * In both lists, there seem to be a few common errors that might be good candidates for a 'bot script. A (0) in a telephone number can safely be dropped, bad lat/long values are usually either DMS (so suited for conversion) or stray text (which could be removed). Perhaps some who are running 'bots may be able to comment? Ideally, manual editing should be directed to issues that can't be fixed automatically as we have a limited number of human editors to make the changes. K7L (talk) 18:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

skobbler
"BERLIN, December 10, 2013 /PRNewswire/ --

Worldwide online/offline mapping and navigation - premium performance at a pocket-sized price


 * Complete app redesign to offer even more fluid and intuitive operation
 * True offline functionality (via in-app purchases) for all features, including country, continent and world downloads alongside cities and states
 * Updated and fresh map data from OpenStreetMap, the future of digital mapping
 * New streamlined and improved maps provide crystal-clear detail and smooth browsing when they are most needed
 * Built on NGx, the most powerful digital mapping engine in the world, to offer seamless map operation and customisation
 * Integrated 'Wikitravel' and TripAdvisor data delivers fast, up-to-date information on the local area

skobbler, innovators in mobile location-aware services, has announced a major update to its enormously successful GPS Navigation - the most popular navigation solution for iOS. With a range of powerful new features and functionality designed to turn an iPhone or iPad into a top-end satnav, it offers premium performance without the price tag. Whether at home or abroad, GPS Navigation is the ultimate in flexibility, allowing consumers to utilise an internet connection for online use when available, or download maps (via in-app purchases) to store on a device - from individual cities to the world - for use in poor connection or data roaming areas. "

My emphasis added. Shouldn't someone tell them Wikitravel is obsolete? (I'd do it myself except that I'm anonymouse and low status and reaching out would be better done by someone who is neither...) --118.93nzp (talk) 02:10, 12 December 2013 (UTC)


 * A look at 'recent changes' at WT would suggest that the site is moribund, although there is nothing that can point to it being obsolete. (There are some active users bravely trying to add content under a barrage of spam)
 * BTW, it probably isn't a good idea to refer to yourself as 'low status' since that is a concept that most people here (admins included) try to avoid. Anyone who has constructive contributions (of any frequency or amount) should have equal status. Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:22, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Gadget requests
Not sure where to make this request, but can somone import w:en:Special:Gadgets/export/righteditlinks & w:en:Special:Gadgets/export/addsection-plus? Thanks Smokestack Basilisk (talk) 15:41, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It might help if you could provide a little bit of background on each of those gadgets. LtPowers (talk) 21:32, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure, w:en:Special:Gadgets/export/righteditlinks Placed the edit link back to the right side of the screen, and w:en:Special:Gadgets/export/addsection-plus is already installed. The other one that I find useful is w:en:Special:Gadgets/export/OldDiff which reverts the diff coloring to the original mediawiki format of red/green, and also changes the space formatting of diffs. I find that the traditional diff format is easier to read than the newer format. Because these are just user gadgets no defaults would be changed it just would enable users to change their preferences for that. Smokestack Basilisk (talk) 22:02, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, gadget importing is disabled on this wiki, so you must copy and paste the source code from enwiki. --Rschen7754 10:03, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Repeating text
Hello.

Israel has one major airport. Most pages for Israeli cities have the "Get in / By plane" section. The idea is the same, but the wording and level of detail differes. For example: Is there a way to standardize some of the repeating text, if by a template or any other mean?
 * Jerusalem
 * Tel Aviv
 * Haifa
 * Efrat

TaBaZzz (talk) 07:05, 15 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Sure. That's exactly the sort of job that templates are good at, so that info can be updated in one central spot rather than have to updated in multiple articles... Thanks for helping improve our travel guides! --118.93nzp (talk) 07:17, 15 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Better yet, one should simply refer to a single airport page that contains the details and is easily updated. That is what we have airport pages for. If you believe there is too little information to create a separate airport article, have it contained e.g. in the Tel Aviv article and link to Tel Aviv from other city articles.PrinceGloria (talk) 09:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)


 * There's also Israel. I'm guessing that Ben-Gurion Airport would be a major enough airport for its own article, if someone wanted to write one. We could discuss this more at Wikivoyage talk:Airport Expedition, where a consensus is usually developed for an airport article or not, but I doubt anyone would object. It's Israel's major international airport, and there's a lot to say about security procedures and ground transportation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:44, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Snowolf
This is a note to let people know that User:Snowolf has resigned, since the rights removal was done at Meta: --Rschen7754 02:46, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I thank you all for your kindness and trust in me in first choosing me as a temporary admin and then confirming me as a permanent one. I never was able to put as much work into this project as I would have liked, and over the past couple of months my available time has shrunk significantly and as such I do not foresee a change in my ability to be active here. I also would like to apologize to you all for my poor activity record here, which I did not foresee when I asked for your trust. I remain active in my duties as a steward, meta-wiki admin and in my role on our IRC channels and I can be reached on Meta as always if needed. Snowolf How can I help? 03:03, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your contributions here. It's a pity your suggestion here was not progressed... --118.93nzp (talk) 03:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It's good to see you, Snowolf, even for this. No need to apologize. If you do find you have more time, I know everyone will welcome your coming back to edit more or take part in more policy discussions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:34, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Stars in hotel names to indicate their ratings
Some articles contain star characters * in the name of a hotel to indicate its rating. See for instance https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Beruwela#Sleep

Is it a recommended style, or should they be removed, or is the statu quo OK? I compiled a list of the 146 articles that contain such stars, feel free to fix them as appropriate: https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/User:Nicolas1981/Syntax_checks#Stars

Cheers! Nicolas1981 (talk) 03:19, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Isn't the star system somewhat dubious? In many places non-chain hotels can advertize themselves as a 'four star hotel' as a self assessment rather than as an official accreditation. Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:37, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * There has been no consensus to include star symbols in hotel ratings, and some users delete them whenever they see them. I think it's OK for the number of stars to be indicated in prose in the "content" tab of a hotel listings. I don't think stars should be officially allowed in hotel listings. However, while I wouldn't put star symbols in hotel listings, there are more pressing things to do than delete all the stars included in hotel listings, which are often for hotels in countries like Italy where stars are generally emphasized in local hotel listings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:44, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The rating is dubious in countries where it is not regulated, but can be useful in countries where it is regulated. The level also depends on the country. Anyway, I don't think this info belongs in the "name" field... maybe in "content" as Ikan suggests? In many years (when we have achieved all of our great projects and have nothing better to do) we could even create a special field for it. Nicolas1981 (talk) 09:03, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Well it then becomes dubious by virtue of not being consistent between countries. :) Anyway, happy for such ratings to be mentioned in 'content'. Andrewssi2 (talk) 09:38, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * This has come up a number of times before, most recently at Words to avoid. I think consensus is that we should not use star ratings at all unless there is some very special reason to do so. There are too many different rating systems out there and it's too easy for establishments to make up their own rating, and if we encourage putting the stars and naming the rating system, it would imply that our evaluation may be based on that rating system rather than on personal experience of travellers. One of our most important guidelines, WV:The traveller comes first, states:
 * Regions, price classifications etc are based on the convenience and expectations of travellers, not bureaucratic fiat (administrative districts, formal star ratings and so on). (emphasis mine)
 * I actually thought our aversion to star ratings was encoded in policy somewhere, because we have taken a pretty consistent approach to it over the years. Apparently it is not, but I certainly would not mind if we put it in writing somewhere. Regardless, in no case is an unqualified string of asterisks part of the name of an establishment, so nobody should be putting asterisks in the name field. I am one of those who always remove them when I see them, and I actually do feel like it is always worth doing so. Texugo (talk) 11:00, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * There's rating systems, don't tout and words to avoid. I'd suspect vague claims like "five star service" are words to avoid as overtly promotional, unless a specific rating system is identified and that rating agency actually sends inspectors out on the road to evaluate under established criteria. "Awarded four flat tyres in the Michelin guide de la route, 2001" is valid if Michelin actually sent an inspector, "our five star service will delight business and leisure travellers" is meaningless. There's a huge difference between getting one star from a local directory which lists every hotel/motel/youth hostile/abandoned cave (so 1* is the worst place in town) vs. one star in a specialised high-end guide where a bad or even average property just doesn't get listed. An asterisk in the name suggests "* batteries not included" or some other disclaimer, not an award, unless it's explained somehow. K7L (talk) 18:41, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I do not think using these ratings is a good idea. See the opening part of Rating systems. Pashley (talk) 21:49, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Listings as CSV
I improved the CSV of all Wikivoyage listings, I think it looks pretty good now and should allow for many mashups:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/wikivoyage/files/Listings-as-CSV/enwikivoyage-20131130-listings.csv

Please tell anyone who uses data from WT, that they have no excuse to not switch to WV: It is so much easier to use a CSV file than to do web-scraping.

Any other CSV or data that you would find useful?

Google Code is closing downloads, so I resurrected good old SourceForge. Yes, I got bold and create a "Wikivoyage" project. If Wikimedia has an account, I will be glad to transfer the project to them. Meanwhile I will distribute all of my Wikivoyage-extracted data there. Nicolas1981 (talk) 03:34, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

w:WP:GP
Just FYI, I'm proposing on Wikipedia a gadget that makes use of Wikivoyage's banners via Wikidata. --Yair rand (talk) 05:28, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

What in your opinion are the best banners Wikivoyage currently got?
I tried to compile such a list here. Please let me know if you know of any additional banners (not included in this page) which are particularly successful and which you believe are of comparable quality. I am well aware that such a list eventually would be based on the personal taste of each user, nevertheless, I would still be grateful if people could mention here what specific banners they currently think look best. ויקיג&#39;אנקי (talk) 23:43, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * We have Star banners page for this but it never really got off. I think Inkey's, Armigo's and Danapit's uploads are all really great. Jjtkk (talk) 07:13, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I see. That reminds me, might there be by any chance a link which would automatically produce a list on wikicommons of the latest banners created for Wikivoyage? ויקיג&#39;אנקי (talk) 15:49, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * commons:Category:Wikivoyage banners. --Saqib (talk) 15:52, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The files there are divided into a lot of subcategories - there are actually too many subcategories for a user to get a quick indication of the latest additions. That's why I was hoping that there is a way to quickly and automatically produce a list on wikicommons of the latest banners created for Wikivoyage. ויקיג&#39;אנקי (talk) 18:14, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The ones on that link are almost all land/cityscapes, but I think some of our best are less obvious. Kyoto has a nice one. One of my favorites is Hiroshima. The image quality is great but even beyond that, the cranes are something that represent the city well but are not necessarily the most obvious symbol (like Genbaku Dome or some other monument would be). The ones on the list are all nice looking, but they are basically all the same style. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 05:45, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Have Android? Import all Wikivoyage listings!
Dear Android users,

Here is an easy howto describing how to import all Wikivoyage listings to the OsmAnd maps app (free, open source, GPS navigation/maps work even when offline).

Scenario: You are parachuted in a random country with zero preparation and no Internet.


 * Just open OsmAnd, and the Wikivoyage hotels/etc show on the map!
 * Once you have chosen a hotel, let the GPS guide you.

OsmAnd + offline world base map: 150 MB Wikivoyage listings: 3 MB OxygenGuide to have not only the listings but also the full guides: 475 MB Independence: Priceless

Don't hesitate: You NEED this on your phone :-) Nicolas1981 (talk) 06:19, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Have not tried yet, but it looks great! Could you share the secret of listings export? We would like to do it for other languages as well. --Alexander (talk) 07:27, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * My secret is open source on Github :-) Please git-fork, or even better implement internationalization directly in the script, I will be glad to pull your contributions! Validation/generation takes more than a day on my laptop, so I am now trying to get the script to run automatically on Wikimedia Labs every time a new dump is available, and once your code is ready I will set it to run for Russian as well, of course. Nicolas1981 (talk) 08:44, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, let me give it a try. I am not good in writing codes and know only basic Unix commands, but I should be able to run your code against the ru: dump and then see what should be changed. Hopefully, only few changes are required.
 * Can you think of keeping/generating POI numbers, so that they are consistent with Wikivoyage articles? --Alexander (talk) 09:27, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * These IDs are necessary for the OSM format, but they actually do not appear anywhere in OsmAnd... good idea though! We could calculate POI numers and concatenate them to the POI name, so that POI name becomes for instance "3: Bar Chez Roger". What do you think about it? Nicolas1981 (talk) 06:03, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, that's already something different. I was thinking of making the OsmAnd map similar to our dynamic maps, where each POI has its number displayed as part of the symbol. But I am not sure it is possible with OsmAnd. --Alexander (talk) 07:16, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Wiki Loves Monuments Photo Competition
The winners of the photo competition run in September have been announced. These are great photos of historic buildings on a national register (criteria varies by country). I think that we should make use of some of these - we might benefit from any publicity about the results. AlasdairW (talk) 23:33, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Most comprehensive guides
I think we've got some very comprehensive guides if compare to traditional guide books. Do you guys think we should create a list similar to star articles where we can list our most comprehensive guides? --Saqib (talk) 11:36, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * No. Star articles need to be comprehensive so that's partly covered. If we have some that are comprehensive but not high quality, nominate them for Collaboration of the month; maybe we can get them up to star. Pashley (talk)
 * Okay but unfortunately, CotM seems defunct now. --Saqib (talk) 09:13, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Defects in listings editor
Please forgive my whining, but the listings editor is just one way that we have the potential to be vastly superior to Wikitravel.

You know what I mean - the thing that pops up if you click the little grey "edit" text at the end of a listing?

1) Sleep type listings do not display (and neither do they destroy) the "checkin" and "checkout" fields

2) Wrong examples are given for 24 hour time formats (which are the ones that should be used in most of the countries of the world outside of the US).

My suggestion is to change the example from 9AM-5PM or 9:00-17:00 to <span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: #006400;">08:30-16:30 or 8:30AM-4:30PM so that editors have a clue that we use a colon to separate the hours from the minutes and that two digits are always used for the hours when using the (more universally used in print) 24 hour format...

3) Currency symbols for
 * ₹ ₪ ₱ Kč

are missing.

(These symbols are recommended at $ for Indian rupees, Israeli new shekels, Philippines pesos and Czech crowns, respectively. It might also be worthwhile adding the RM, Rp and Rs notations, but that's not so pressing).

If there is a way that I can fix the last two points myself, please tell me... --118.93nzp (talk) 23:51, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

External links to downloadable open-source comprehensive free GPS map files (of countries or continents) created using the OpenStreetMap
In the Hebrew Wikivoyage we have recently added external links at the bottom of many articles to such free legal files which might help out the travelers tremendously. I myself used such a map last year and it helped me navigate while driving a vehicle in a country I never drove before in Europe, without needing to purchase a new GPS device for that country (the GPS producers apparently hope that travelers would do so, even though nowadays one can legally download a free open source GPS map of most countries world wide and load it on ones GPS device). The way this is done is quite simple - many of the GPS devices these days have a memory card slot, where you put in a memory card containing any free open source GPS map. Since the map of each country takes up a large portion of the available space on the memory card, and since these memory cards are quite cheap these days, in may cases it is easier for the traveler to copy each GPS map of each country one would travel to into separate memory cards and carry them all in the camera's case ).

You can see an example of such a link here (the link appears next to the GPS icon and it says "Free downloadable GPS map for Garmin GPS devices - a free GPS map generated on the basis of the maps from the free maps website OpenStreetMap. It should be noted that this map is developed, updated, and distributed by private parties and not by Garmin. Installation instructions in English").

Would you support doing the same thing on the English Wikivoyage? ויקיג&#39;אנקי (talk) 07:01, 19 December 2013 (UTC)


 * you can see a list containing many links to free downloadable open-source Garmin GPS maps on this page at the OpenStreetMap wiki. ויקיג&#39;אנקי (talk) 07:05, 19 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I would be in favor of adding such information, but maybe in a more compact format? A whole section is a bit big, maybe a link in the left bar would be better? By the way, it is a pity that the linked page is only in German. It is mostly for country articles, right? Data files are usually for a country or big area rather than for a single destination. I don't have a Garmin, but I think the tip would be very useful for Garmin owners! By the way, downloadable maps are similarly available for OsmAnd (all files downloadable here). Nicolas1981 (talk) 07:18, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Missing interwikis
Apparently something has happened to the language links on some pages: Recent changes, Special pages, etc. Does anyone know what has happened? Did they have their wikidata items revoked or something? Texugo (talk) 10:35, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The Recent changes item should be back now. There is a discussion on the matter at d:Wikidata:Requests for comment/Interwiki links for special pages. --Rschen7754 18:54, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Calendar of events and festivals
The Calendar of events and festivals pages have been ignored for some time. I would like to propose changing the format, but before I spend many hours on this (unless other willing to help) some feedback would be useful. Thinking of using this format but merging all the month and subject pages into a single page. This table method allows readers to sort by month, location or subject. For or against? Suggestions for improvements? --Traveler100 (talk) 13:13, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The nature of a wiki is that there's no way to guarantee that your work won't be deleted (at least from public view) at some point. However, I noticed what you were doing, and I appreciate it. I think that a calendar of events can be useful if there are sufficient people to maintain it (which is a potential problem with any article but more acute when there are holidays and festivals whose dates change every year). I don't have any specific suggestions right now, but I would like to encourage you to continue plunging forward and experimenting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:33, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * {edit conflict}
 * Preliminary thoughts:
 * That'd be one huge table, especially if we populated it as thoroughly as needed to make it comprehensive. Even if broken down by continents the tables would be pretty unwieldy.
 * It wastes quite a bit of white space, and the longer the description, the more space wasted in the other fields.
 * The image field, when used, greatly multiplies the amount of wasted space in the other fields.
 * Having to define a set of subjects into which we can categorize everything is problematic. To what extent is Oktoberfest a cultural event, and to what extent food/drink? São Paulo's Festival do Japão is as much a trade show as it is a cultural expo and a food festival. The Texas State Fair is a livestock show with carnival rides and cultural attractions and also well known for its unusual fried food items. Many other events are similarly difficult to classify definitively.
 * I appreciate the experimentation, but I'm not yet convinced that tables are the answer. Texugo (talk) 13:43, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Texugo (talk) 13:43, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Another idea is an event listing template. Rough example here. This could be used on the events pages and within location articles. The advantage of this over the current free format that is being used is that out of date events could be easily identified (category or bot) so they can be updated. --Traveler100 (talk) 15:34, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * As the event calendar pages have had little attention and will always be a problem to maintain, how about having then automatically complied from event listings on location article pages? Method would be to have a event listing template on article pages, this would have a month and type parameter that would then place that location page in event type and month categories. The contents of these categories then listed on the event calendar pages. Thus contributors would only have to add events to location article the event calendars would build automatically.--Traveler100 (talk) 10:21, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that is a good idea. I would suggest some kind of an importance rating e.g. 1 = Worth going to if you are in walking distance ... 5 = Worth taking a long haul flight to get to. This should stop the World Cup getting lost in dozens of village football matches. AlasdairW (talk) 11:22, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I was wondering about how to handle the different importance (local or global) of events, that's good idea. --Traveler100 (talk) 11:37, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * So have method of organising an event by type, month and country but what is listed is the article, i.e. place, name. For example the Dinagyang Festival is listed under Events in January and Cultural events but as its location Iloilo (city) and not event name. Unless a page is create for the event, like Sochi 2014, I cannot see a better way of doing this without making the input for the user too complex. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:27, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I hate to sound hypercritical since I haven't been offering any better suggestions in this department, but creating 72 new categories divided into a rather subjective 5 categories sound like it would require more maintenance effort rather than less, and the fact that those category pages could never be more than simple unbroken lists of destination names that would require clicking through to each to find out which event(s) are concerned does not strike me as an improvement in user-friendliness. Texugo (talk) 02:30, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Totally see your point. Just searching for a solution by experimentation and suggestions. Only other idea I have at the moment (except deleting the calendar pages altogether) is to use the event listing template on location article pages, do not use the categories directly but use a bot to compile the calendar of events pages. Not sure how to write such a bot though. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:46, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Why not use links to Wikipedia, or utilise Wikidata for much of the information rather than recreating it all here, especially for major events like Socchi, World Cup etc where they carry the full schedules, for a whole of WV approach events should be limited to only major internationally events which can be mainpaged. Then have the calander options for national, regional, city events, maintance by a bot would be achievable by including dates as a category and having a bot run to remove expired events say 7 days after its happened. Gnangarra (talk) 01:35, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Created Event which can be used on the calendar pages and in location articles. Provides a standard format which is useful for maintenance (create category with out of data events). Also creates hidden categories by type, date and location which can be used to see what is available to update pages. This is similar to the listings templates, if this experiment works could consider merging the functions. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:35, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I would like to see a halt to creating more categories for this until it has been evaluated and discussed more thoroughly. What I'm see is a flurry of creation of "Events in XXX" categories. The way things are being done so far, the pages for January, February, etc. will eventually belong to hundreds of such categories (they already have quite a pile of categories), which doesn't exactly make much sense. Plus, this method basically starts to recreate the whole geographical hierarchy in "events in" categories, something we have just recently backtracked from doing for topic articles. Texugo (talk) 16:31, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The categories are not meant for readers, the idea was to use as basis of getting the month pages of Calendar of events and festivals to a usable level. But quite frankly going through these pages I am thinking maybe they should just be deleted. It is clear no one has updated in a long time and are useless to read. Maintaining these is a lot of work that no one appears to be interested in. Suggest moving all to appropriate location pages and using the event template (can switch off categories if you wish) so that at least we can easily keep them up to date (template has a check category). --Traveler100 (talk) 18:39, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Copy Mapframe to other language Wikivoyage
I copied Mapframe and PoiMap2 to the Dutch Wikivoyage. However, I think there has to be done more than that to make it working. I do not get a map, only the link under the map that opens a full screen version of the map. I get no error messages, so I don't know what is missing. Is there anybody who could help me? --FredTC (talk) 10:17, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Possibly there are changes to site-wide Javascript or CSS (in the MediaWiki: namespace)? K7L (talk) 05:10, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for reacting. Can you tell me how I can access the Javascript and CSS? Then I could compare the versions of both languages. --FredTC (talk) 09:35, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * MediaWiki:Gadget-MapFrame.js --Adehertogh (talk) 11:47, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Maybe it is a different problem, but on the English Wikivoyage as well, maps often don't display. A refresh (F5) usually fixes the problem. Nicolas1981 (talk) 04:28, 24 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I never had that problem with the English Wikivoyage. However I tried the F5, both in IE and in Mozilla on the Dutch Wikivoyage but no map appeared. So I think I must find the solution of the problem in JS and CSS files. --FredTC (talk) 05:38, 24 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Please consider the documentation of Template:Mapframe ( paragraph code: Used in Conjunction with a gadget: Mediawiki:Gadget-MapFrame.js. If the gadget is disabled, users will only see a caption linking to a full-screen dynamic map. Uses HTML5 data parameters to pass variables to iframe, will need advanced POST query to further affect iframe. ). Maybe that's the solution? -- Joachim Mey2008 (talk) 06:56, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Merry Christmas
May this day bring you health and success. May you and your family experience God’s loving embrace and your holidays season be blessed with Love, Joy and Peace. Wish Merry Christmas to all! --Saqib (talk) 14:06, 25 December 2013 (UTC)


 * And to you as well, Saqib. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:56, 25 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I wish you and everyone here the same! And also a happy, successful and hater/troll-free new year! (Oh my...) ϒpsilon (talk) 09:32, 26 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks Saqib! Merry Christmas to everyone on here as well! :) --Nick talk 12:13, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

1984 or 2014?
We have our own problems with some admins interfering with other user's user space unnecessarily, but it's often easier to spot the mote in your neighbours eye: a short while after removing Evan's sysop privileges, Wikitravel's IBobi re-writes history - again. --118.93nzp (talk) 21:57, 30 December 2013 (UTC)