User talk:Wicks Steve

Hello, and welcome! Please read don't tout and welcome, business owners. Hotel listings on this site cannot be promotional and cannot use "our." They also can't have bullet points in them: Please follow the standard structure and style shown at Accommodation listings. I also deleted URLs in the Wiltshire article because that's a regional article and the URLs relating to localities (those that are official government sites) should be in the relevant city articles, instead. I hope you don't find these things too annoying; there's a bit of a learning curve to getting used to Wikivoyage style, and I and other folks are here to help you whenever you have any questions. Just ask here or in the Travellers' pub.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:16, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi again. I just reverted your latest edits to Chippenham. Again, please read don't tout. If you are doing paid publicity for hotels, you may not add new listings. On the other hand, if you're just copying and pasting promotional hotel listings from some site, please stop. Hotel listings here cannot be promotional, and just to take one example, they cannot list sites like Tripadvisor which have anonymous raters. If you are not doing paid publicity for hotels, please read through don't tout thoroughly before you add any more listings. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:35, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

How dare you accuse me of touting. I suggest you review the update, which has taken me hours to complete.

Wicks Steve (talk) 05:38, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * All of your work is saved in the article history, so if you need to restore any content you can find it there. With respect to Ikan's edit, it takes a lot of work to patrol all edits and ensure that the site isn't being abused for advertising purposes, so if Ikan mis-identified your edit that is unfortunate, but like all contributors he is a volunteer here, so if you are "demanding an apology" please understand that reverts are common and his edit isn't something that is worth getting upset over.  Mistakes are sometimes made, and it's best to simply assume good faith and use article/user talk pages to discuss any misunderstandings or disagreements. -- Ryan &bull; (talk) &bull; 06:05, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

It is upsetting to anyone who is falsely accused, and shouldn't be dismissed so lightly, admitting ones mistakes isn't really so difficult on here. I have already aired my view regarding the misunderstanding on Ikan's user talk page, undone the revert, and fixed an error.

Wicks Steve (talk) 06:19, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * With respect, Sir, I am happy to know that you have no intention of touting, but the listings remain out of compliance with the guidelines that are shown on the page called Don't tout - that's the name of the page, and the guidelines there apply to language that looks promotional as well as language that is actually intended to be promotional. I will, with your indulgence, I hope, cite some passages that are at issue:


 * "Stanton Manor is the ideal environment. Perfect for enjoying a relaxed meal, night’s stay, or for longer visits whilst exploring the local area. Private, award winning dining is a speciality, with exquisite local, seasonal produce and an experienced chef, delicious menus can be created to ensure that you truly dine in style. The entire house can be reserved to ensure a luxurious private dining experience that will create lasting impressions. Conveniently placed, at the gateway to the beautiful Cotswolds, with a range of private rooms and corporate facilities, inviting accommodation and a welcoming restaurant open to non-residents."


 * This is quite promotional-sounding language. I don't contest that Stanton Manor is a great place (I wouldn't know personally but don't doubt that it is, from the description), but there are ways to say that without using words and phrases like "ideal," "perfect" "award winning" (unless the award is specified and is given by an organization that uses professional raters, not anonymous raters like Tripadvisor, and in that case it's fine to mention), etc.


 * Another listing (for The Pines Hotel) uses the word "we" several times. Travel guides don't have hotel listings that say "we" in them.


 * The other issue is precisely the fact that you mention Tripadvisor, which I specifically explained above can't be mentioned on this site, and the reason is that it uses anonymous raters. It's fine if you disagree with Wikivoyage's policy of not mentioning sites like Tripadvisor, but if so, please seek consensus to change the preexisting policy. I'll be happy to point you to the right place to discuss this, if you like, but a default place to start a discussion is the Travellers' pub.


 * I would hope you wouldn't take any of this personally. Anyone who posted similarly-worded hotel listings would have them reverted by me or another admin here, most likely (I can't speak with complete certainty about the approach of every other admin).


 * Please ask me any questions you have. I won't revert your work at this time, but please edit the entries as soon as you have a chance, and thank you very much for contributing and being willing to edit the entries for Wikivoyage style.


 * All the best,


 * Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:39, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Strange that you should use Stanton Manor as your example, having stayed there on the occasion of a family gathering to celebrate my mother's 80th birthday on 3rd April 2009, I even have photos I took of the event on my facebook page. Every family member who attended spent the night, so this is one hotel that I can personally attest is as described. However, I understand how the text doesn't comply, and will edit it accordingly.

Wicks Steve (talk) 06:51, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It's great that you stayed there and can attest to its quality from your own experience! Please do describe what's wonderful about it. We love colorful descriptions. We just tend to avoid superlatives. There's actually a Words to avoid page that includes some superlatives on it, but not words like "beautiful" or "delicious."


 * All the best,


 * Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:58, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Steve, i checked your edits and made some changes because -like Ikan- the descriptions don't comply with our policies in some areas. Please don't add the tripadvisor part because that is going to change often and will be outdated fast. Also superlatives and to write our house/hotel does give the impression you are the owner and business promotion. jan (talk) 07:09, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I was currently in the middle of editing the page, as stated earlier, in order to make it compliant, but now that User:Jc8136 has seen fit to make changes at the same time, I'd rather avoid running the risk of further editing conflicts. To be honest, I am disgusted at the shoddy way this has been handled and I think I will simply remove all of my edits and let someone else do the hard work. I have a mind to remove every edit I have ever made within the last decade. You are far too quick to criticise yet have managed only one word of praise in all that time.

Wicks Steve (talk) 07:52, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Please do not remove content, now that it has been edited for Wikivoyage style. The watchword here is to serve the traveller, and removing helpful content does not serve the traveller.


 * Also, please understand that Wikis are collaborative, so there will always be multiple editors of most articles, by design. If you find it offensive to engage in a collective editing project, Wikis may really not be for you, which is a pity, but hey, there's a big Internet with room for everyone. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:56, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Just out of curiosity, where did you edit for the last decade? Did you used to participate on WT under another username, perhaps? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:58, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Only recently did I decide to create the account and log in. Before I was just a series of ip addresses, a few of which have been, 86.13.187.217, 86.29.5.165, 82.31.66.182, 86.13.182.103, and now I am https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Wicks_Steve and https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Wicks_Steve

Wicks Steve (talk) 08:17, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey, Wicks Steve. Thanks for your edits and your willingness to adjust your approach to match our standards.  I ask for your patience with us.  Unfortunately, your edits touched upon one of the big "red flags" we have around here; it's a constant struggle to keep hoteliers and restauranteurs (and their agents) from hyping their establishments here without regard for balance or style.  So when we see such things, we tend to revert first and ask questions later.  We've found that's the most efficient way to deal with editors who are only here to increase their own business.  Unfortunately, that causes problems when good-faith contributors get caught up in it, and it's a balance we constantly struggle with.  Please bear with us.  We have a number of great hotel descriptions on our Star articles; you might want to take a look at some of them to see the kind of approach that doesn't send up those "red flags".  LtPowers (talk) 13:36, 24 September 2013 (UTC)