User talk:Tpbradley

Hello, Tpbradley! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here.AHeneen (talk) 16:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your edits, but please be aware that due to ongoing concerns about hotel listings added by paid editors, Wikivoyage has instituted a new policy that disallows paid editors from adding listings for multiple hotel properties - see Don't tout. You are welcome to correct incorrect phone numbers or URLs in existing listings, but due to conflict of interest concerns any additions of new hotel properties should be avoided.  After reading the referenced policy, if you have questions you can ask them on this talk page or in the Pub. -- Ryan &bull; (talk) &bull; 18:38, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Hello, thanks for reaching out. Can you clarify some items? Can you define "paid editor?" I work for Hilton and represent the hotels that I have submitted, meaning that I am not from a third-party vendor or agency. After my first attempt, they were rejected because they didn't include price and description fields. Despite the fact that most of the other hotels didn't include this, I wanted to abide by any guidance sent to me. After my second attempt (with the proposed edits), they were rejected because of Don't Tout. I reviewed my descriptions carefully to make sure that only facts were conveyed with as little marketing verbiage as possible. Then, I thought that because I posted without creating an account first, my submissions would be suspect. So, I created an account, and now, I'm being told that I can't add any new hotels at all.

Obviously I am wrong in my understanding of the goal of your all-purpose travel wiki because I thought you'd want as many travel options from as many sources as possible (not just Hilton-brand hotels, but from all brands, B&Bs, rentals, etc.), of course, as long as they were factual and helpful as a resource. But if you're saying that you only want to keep the hotels that are currently listed (some of which are already closed or have switched brands) and won't allow for new hotels, then I am utterly confused. The hotel industry is ever-changing and evolving, and anyone in travel is aware of this. To "lock in" your current list of hotel options not only is a disservice to the people who want to use your wiki as a travel resource, it is inherently against the idea of a wiki in the first place. All you would need to do is check my links for accuracy and authenticity.

Sorry for the long response and thanks for listening. —The preceding comment was added by Tpbradley (talk • contribs)


 * First, thank you for the attempts you've made to work with us - they are truly appreciated, and are the exception amongst the myriad of marketers and hotel employees who add listings here. The issue is not that the hotel list is being "locked in", but the following considerations are some issues that led to the recent policy change:
 * A specific non-goal of this site is to avoid being a simple yellow pages directory, and listing every chain hotel runs afoul of that guidance.
 * Editors here spend an extraordinary amount of time cleaning up after marketers, and consensus is that time is not being well spent.
 * There is a conflict of interest when someone is paid to edit, and the core principle of this guide is that the traveler comes first. A traveler who visits a city and wants to write about hotels they stayed in is likely to write a fair review of hotels in the area that they want to recommend to other travelers, but a marketer writing about their properties is writing solely to promote their company's properties.
 * We continue to allow business owners to add a single, non-promotional listings for the specific business location that they operate, and marketers are welcome to fix factual inaccuracies (such as bad phone numbers, URLs, etc), but having marketers add listings for the various properties operated by a brand is now being discouraged as an inappropriate use of this site. Hotel listings will continue to be added and updated, but it will need to be done by travelers and not hotel companies. -- Ryan &bull; (talk) &bull; 20:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Ok, you make some good points here that I was not aware of, the first being that you don't want a listing of hotels (ala yellowpages), and yes, obviously, I want to submit my properties for added exposure and promotion. Otherwise, what's the point, right, and I'm not hiding that fact. Still a little confused regarding who can add their hotel/business; you say that you allow business owners to add their property, but a listing will need to be added by travelers (not hotel companies). The fact of the matter is that, these days, there are very few hotels that are mom/pop-owned, and most are managed by "hotel companies" (brand, franchise, mgmt companies, investment firms) which means that my role, as representative for my hotels, is that, basically, I am the business owner, or at least, act on behalf of the business owner. And this would, if not tedious, be somewhat easy to prove to you on a case-by-case basis. (Also, fyi, the hotels are also given @hilton.com email addresses so ultimately, you'd have to take our word for it that each actual hotel is behind this.) Again, though, I can appreciate your not wanting to see a sudden influx of Hampton Inns that may dominate the Sleep section which might turn it into a generic hotel listing. Can I suggest trying to break cities down into neighborhoods where appropriate? Jacksonville has many different neighborhoods (Baymeadows, Deerwood Park, etc.) which would help to break up these lists and provide more location-based value to the user. St. Augustine has Vilano Beach as another example. Is there a "friendly" way to submit hotels such as spread out over time or a limited number per market, or is the policy hard set, meaning no submissions at all from hotel companies?

Thanks again, I'm sure you didn't plan on spending half your day reading my questions and responses. —The preceding comment was added by Tpbradley (talk • contribs)


 * You might want to make some of these suggestions as a new discussion on Wikivoyage talk:Don't tout, which is the discussion page for changing site policies related to marketing. With respect to the specific suggestion to break articles about large cities into districts, Geographical_hierarchy has information on that process - Chicago is a good example of a city article that has been split up.


 * As to confusion about who can add their business, the key point is that a person who owns and operates a single hotel, a restaurant, etc can add a listing for that business, provided it is non-promotional, but someone who owns/operates a group of several hotels/restaurants, or who has been hired to promote that business online, should not be adding that business to our guides. In general if we see someone adding lots of hotel listings the assumption is that they are a paid editor.  There is obviously still a conflict of interest with this policy, but we're trying to strike a balance between making this guide open to anyone for editing while at the same time avoiding having Wikivoyage be used as a tool for advertising.  For years we also allowed marketing agencies and hotel chains to add listings to articles, but the recent policy change ending this practice was an admission that the many, many companies adding hotel listings were essentially abusing the site for advertising/promotional purposes in a way that did not promote the goal of building better travel guides.


 * As to a "friendly" way to submit hotels, Don't tout notes that if a city has a very limited number of lodging options, or if a property is truly exceptional, paid editors can use the destination article's talk page to suggest a listing be added to the article, after which a regular editor here can review the proposal and possibly add it to the article. The key point is that we do not want paid editors adding these listings directly to the article themselves.  If the talk page "suggestion" process is abused as a backdoor way for getting listings into Wikivoyage then that process may be eliminated - it is meant to only be used for a small subset of locations.


 * Hopefully that answers your questions. Thanks again for taking the time to work with us - 95% of marketers and hotel chains do not, which is why it was unfortunately necessary to take a harder line in the site policies. -- Ryan &bull; (talk) &bull; 23:32, 31 January 2013 (UTC)