User talk:Libertarianmoderate

Hello, Libertarianmoderate! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here. Pashley (talk) 00:13, 16 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Care to comment at Talk:Northwest Pakistan? Pashley (talk) 00:26, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

- OK, I've added an explanation to the talk page. —The preceding comment was added by Libertarianmoderate (talk • contribs)

Recreating empty articles.
Hi, welcome to Wikivoyage! I have the same questions about your recreation of Al-Qamishli and Assur as I put on Talk:Ar Rutba, namely: do you plan on making these pages into a useful travel guide by adding content that is helpful for travellers? Content such as information on places to see, things to do, and venues to sleep and eat. If you are planning to do this, that's great; please carry on and do so. If not, there is no value in keeping these three empty skeletons, and they should redirected to their respective parent region.

Please let me know if you have any questions. Looking forward to hearing from you, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:54, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

A little tip for talk pages
Hi Libertarianmoderate and welcome to WV from me as well!

A little heads up: when discussing on talk pages, it's common practice here on Wikivoyage to type four tildes after one's comment, like this ~. This will add your username and the time and date of your comment, which makes discussions easier to follow. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:36, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

St. Elmo (Illinois)
Please take a look at how other articles add points of interest. Direct links to google maps is not supported on Wikivoyage. Note when editing the Listings icons above the text area. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:51, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Faryab Province (Afghanistan)
Before starting a different regional organisation of Afghanistan please start a discussion at Talk:Afghanistan and get some consensus on the subject. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:19, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Please discuss creating new region structure before going ahead with creating page. --Traveler100 (talk) 21:51, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

This is not Wikipedia
Please remember this is a travel guide, creating articles of places not yet on the site is great but they need to be valid article subjects. Create lists with places that are no more like French Equatorial Africa and French West Africa is something for Wikipedia not Wikivoyage. Also places with really small populations with no where to stay overnight as a visitor, like Irwin, are not constructive. If there is a point of interest worth mentioning here then place it in the next largest town. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:56, 4 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Places that are no more can have articles, but it is not always clear they should. e.g. I created the German East Africa article because the place came up in the text for MV Liemba. Such articles should be tagged as Extraregion. My suggestion here would be to merge & redirect French Equatorial Africa and French West Africa into French Empire.


 * I've been here over a decade & it has always been policy that tiny places do not get their own articles, though redirects to the nearest town or the region that contains them are encouraged. The details have been extensively discussed; one place is Wikivoyage_talk:Deletion_policy. Pashley (talk) 13:26, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

User:Traveler100 Here, I fixed it for you. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 15:43, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

If hotels are the criteria for having an article, then by that logic, Bourbonnais should not have an article, even though there's plenty to see and do there. Why is it that you want to stop people who want to visit these towns from getting info on them from us? Last time I checked, keeping people uninformed about the places they want to visit isn't one of Wikivoyage's goals, even though it may be one of yours. Where would we even put Bonfield's info at in the Limestone or Kankakee articles? Do we start changing the format for those articles? Last time I checked, changing the format of articles was an evil, horrible thing to do, maybe even a bannable offense. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 18:02, 4 July 2018 (UTC)


 * See What is an article? for current policy; the "can you sleep there?" test is part of it, but not even close to all of it. There has been extensive discussion over several years. Starting points include the talk page for the policy & its archives, my link above & the rest of that page, & archives of pub discussions. Pashley (talk) 18:19, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Vacation
I'm leaving for vacation today. See you in a week. —The preceding comment was added by Libertarianmoderate (talk • contribs)
 * Enjoy, hopefully you will have some good locations to report on when you get back. --Traveler100 (talk) 13:33, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Happy travels, see you soon. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:10, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Northwestern Iraq - good job
Thanks for completing that page move and mopping up all the stray mentions of Assyria. Best, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:11, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Sandbox Pages
Remember those sandbox pages I made? Well, I now have not only improved those, but I've created two series of sandbox: A fictional country named after my real-life name and a WIP series about the entire solar system. To read them, click this link.
 * Alex Nation is not somewhere I'd like to visit, I have to say; seems a bit dangerous, all those competing ideologies. Alexander the Great Cathedral sounds cool, but I'd have to remember not to mention the war. Oh darn, I went and mentioned it.
 * Take me to Chorro or Tomasia any day. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:05, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Also, when are we going to write a serious Mars article? If not solely for the planet itself, there's plenty of Mars-related attractions here on Earth. We have a Moon article, and nobody's been there since before the Sony Walkman was invented. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 23:20, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Radibu
Although there are foreign country troops on Socotra, I do not believe there is a war going on there. Are you sure about the warning box added? --Traveler100 (talk) 19:57, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Londonistan
Please don't create joke redirects like that ever again. It's not funny or clever, and you're just making work for others. Accordingly, I've deleted the page. Also, if you ever come to England, I'd advise you to avoid using that term, as all you'll succeed in doing is offending the locals and making yourself unwelcome. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:36, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Okay, I won't make a redirect like that again. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 15:17, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for understanding. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:18, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Parkland (Florida)
A few months ago, this article was created. But a vote was taken on the article's talk page with the decision of redirecting the article. For the record, your recent edits, returning to the article to its original state and then adding to it, went against the consensus to redirect a little while ago. I think the best thing to do would be to ask those users whether they think the article should be kept or not in its current state, which I am doing below.

Since you voted a few months ago to redirect the article, it has been expanded and improved. Do you still support its redirect? Selfie City (talk) 15:08, 10 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the heads-up, . The redirect vote was based on there only being one listing - for a high school - in the article. That did not warrant a separate article. Now that LibMod has added golf courses, ice cream, and nearby hotels, it is a different article and a different kettle of fish. It doesn't meet the Sleep Test, but it does meet the Gourmet Ice Cream Test. (I can't find the Gourmet Ice Cream Test in our policies, but I'm sure it must be there somewhere.) I would vote to leave this article now. It is not the stub that it was, and I think Wikivoyage benefits more from de-stubbing articles, than from merging non-stub articles. Ground Zero (talk) 15:33, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
 * But my vote is not enough to establish a consensus. We should wait for others to weigh in before restoring the article. Ground Zero (talk) 15:52, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Are there any other users that you think I should notify? Selfie City (talk) 16:21, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Notify. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 16:45, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I vote for it to be kept and expanded further. It may not technically meet the sleep test, but since there are hotels within a few minutes' drive, that doesn't matter so much. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:58, 10 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Would you say that's enough for a consensus? It seems like it is to me. Selfie City (talk) 17:00, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, it looks like we do have a consensus. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 17:31, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Probably, but it would be polite to wait for User:Mx. Granger to give their opinion, since they were asked but haven't been online in the last couple of hours to comment. That's not the same thing as an abstention. What's the rush? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:07, 10 August 2018 (UTC)


 * It looks OK to me, but since a hotel in Coconut Creek is listed and there's no article for Coconut Creek, why doesn't the lede explicitly state that Coconut Creek is also covered in this article? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:28, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

ONE THOUSAND EDITS!
I just made my ONE THOUSANDTH EDIT!! 23:25, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Oh, that's why you were randomly adding space after space to your user page and publishing about a million times... Selfie City (talk) 23:27, 10 August 2018 (UTC)


 * I figured it would be faster. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 23:31, 10 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Here's to the next thousand! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:47, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Redirects
Could you please stop making redirects for people's names? It's not a real problem, just that the vfd discussion is pending and we don't want to be deleting hundreds of redirects if we can help it. Thanks for your consideration. Selfie City (talk) 18:12, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Next-to-impossible destinations and war zone safety
Hi! As you're apparently interested in dangerous destinations, did you know that we have an article about Next-to-impossible destinations and one for War zone safety. I think they might interest you. :) ϒpsilon (talk) 19:29, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

I've already read both of those. Thank you though. :-) Libertarianmoderate (talk) 22:36, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Empty articles about dangerous places
Hi. Do you think empty articles you've been creating, like those for Beled Hawo, Barawe and El Wak (Kenya), will ever be useful travel articles? If a place has nothing worth seeing or doing in it and is dangerous to boot, what's the point of creating an article about it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:24, 14 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Just for the record, Ikan Kekek, Barawe was not really created by Libertarianmoderate. Otherwise yes, Ikan Kekek, I agree with your point. Libertarianmoderate, if you read Talk:Villa Las Estrellas you will see that I was also writing about far-off places but was advised to instead stick to material I know better, which I have been doing since. Since that conversation with Granger, I've actually found quite a lot of travel topics, etc., that I can write about. Selfie City (talk) 01:29, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * To clarify, I don't think it's a bad thing to edit articles about places you're not familiar with—but I think it should be approached with caution, and I have concerns about speculation and big changes like region reorganization. (And I do think in many cases it can be more productive to work on places you've been to.) When it comes to an article like Beled Hawo, I also wonder whether it can realistically become useful. —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:12, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Articles about places where there's a conflict will not have the opportunity to become truly useful until the conflict has been resolved. Selfie City (talk) 02:59, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Also have to say not in favour of this trend. Particularly when some are like Socotra are state as war zones and are not. --Traveler100 (talk) 11:35, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Don't worry. I'm adding more stuff to them right now. I also redirected El Wak Somalia to El Wak Kenya, as there isn't much on the Somali side. I guess I just never got around to it yesterday. 14:39, 14 August 2018 (UTC) Libertarianmoderate (talk) 14:40, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Kilis
Do you plan on adding more content about this town? I hope so; otherwise, does it really merit its own article? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:42, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Of course. I just did. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 21:54, 16 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Good. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:57, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Time to learn formats of this site
When you create a new page there is a line
 * City • City District • Region • National Park • Phrasebook • Huge airport • Dive site • Disambiguation • Redirect

Click on the type of article you are creating, e.g. City and it will create the correct format with all the correct templates in it. Doing this will save you and other time. Also when adding an entry under a section (listing) in the edit window there are icons like a building and a bed, please use these then the format will be more intelligent and useful to the reader and other tools used here. --Traveler100 (talk) 00:02, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

I don't know what "line" you're talking about. When I create articles, I just copy the empty format from an old version of the Accomac article. I've never seen an option to select an article type. When I create an article, it just gives me a blank slate and I go from there. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 01:48, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * If you are using the visual editor is should be at the bottom of the notice, if using the source editor it is about halfway though the text at the top. --Traveler100 (talk) 02:06, 15 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Okay, let me make this easier for you, LM. The Accomac article should be fine when you create templates for cities, but regions don't have the same section headers as cities do. But to make this simple, I'm going to copy into here the code for some different kinds of articles so this won't be a problem. Just take the code for each corresponding one, and copy it into the source mode of the article you are going to write. Here it goes:

City
From Quick small city article template

City name is in Region name.

Region
From Quick region article template

Region name is in Country name.

Park
From Quick park article template

Name of Park is in Region of Country.

Go next
Hope this helps. If you're having any trouble with this, feel free to comment below. (By the way, I wrote this without seeing Traveler100's previous comment and just made some quite edits before posting to reflect his comment.) Selfie City (talk) 02:09, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

OK, got it. Thanks for the info. But the travel topic format isn't there. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 13:23, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Travel topics don't have a proper template, just this. It's worth looking at Chicago skyline and Retiring abroad to see some examples of the very best travel topics we have, and try to reproduce their style. You could also look at topic articles for similar genres of topic as those you're interested in creating; for instance, if you create a Star Trek tourism guide, you might look at Game of Thrones tourism, Breaking Bad Tour, Star Wars tourism, etc. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:48, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, travel topics don't have a set list of headers like city articles do. Selfie City (talk) 01:39, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

New travel topics.
All four of those pages are WIP. Do not delete.

Please do not create empty outlines unless you intend to fill them
Hi there. I see that today alone you created four empty outline travel topics. While there is nothing against any of those articles per se, it is hard for others to help expand them if they contain basically no information whatsoever. Please refrain from creating even more travel topics before those that you already created contain at least some information. Kind regards. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:07, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

As I said literally right above where you posted, they are works in progress. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 19:17, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Libertarianmoderate . Please take the advice given, particularly when you ask for it. Moved article until they have content into your user space. --Traveler100 (talk) 21:02, 15 August 2018 (UTC)


 * User:Libertarianmoderate/Spanish-American_War
 * User:Libertarianmoderate/Druze
 * User:Libertarianmoderate/Missionary_Survival_Guide
 * User:Libertarianmoderate/Star_Trek_tourism


 * Hi, please see the other religion articles we have (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism) to get a sense of how to structure the Druze article. Thanks. Gizza ( roam ) 21:15, 15 August 2018 (UTC)


 * My opinion is that we should give Libertarianmoderate about 2 weeks to turn these into decent articles (that is, with at least 5000 bytes of content). If any of them don't have this in two weeks, we should consider deletion.


 * Also, a quick tip Libertarianmoderate: section headers in a travel topic can be whatever you want! So feel free to create whatever headers fit what you want to write best. All the best, Selfie City (talk) 01:42, 16 August 2018 (UTC)


 * I might agree with you if these articles were in mainspace, but they are in Libmod's userspace (moved there by User:Traveler100), so he can take as long as he likes, with no deadline and no conditions. He doesn't even have to work on them if he doesn't want to. It is perfectly normal for users to work on pages in their own space (I have some too: User:ThunderingTyphoons!/sandbox) and there are no grounds for deleting pages in userspace except in case of touting / spam / criminality or if the user requests it. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:43, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, I'm not really familiar with any of the above. I've decided to abandon these projects for now. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 12:05, 16 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Sigh - That's at least the second time you've done that in a week (Argentina to London overland springs to mind). I would therefore like to ask you to stop creating new articles for the foreseeable future, and focus on editing existing ones, including ones you have previously started. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:11, 16 August 2018 (UTC)


 * All right, I'll stick to towns, etc. for now. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 12:15, 16 August 2018 (UTC)


 * You can stick to any type of article you like, as long as they're articles which already exist! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:17, 16 August 2018 (UTC)


 * I think that makes sense. Personally I also think it's best to avoid articles about war zones, etc. I think you would do well if you added articles about American destinations. Selfie City (talk) 01:47, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Although this site aims to provide information for all types of travellers, not just tourists, I am not sure we can provide much for people going to war zones. I am not sure the articles on Jazira Canton region are very productive or useful contributions. Again creating basic outlines to places few will want to visit at the moment is just creating work for other contributors cleaning up pages. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:08, 20 August 2018 (UTC)


 * said it was OK if I had 3-4 cities per canton article. I'm working on that right now. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 12:34, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Let me explain. Libertarianmoderate created three region articles for places in Syria, but hardly any cities were breadcrumbed underneath them. So to make up for this I told Libertarianmoderate to create at least 3-4 city articles to be breadcrumbed underneath each region article he had created. Selfie City (talk) 14:15, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
 * It was not about creating empty regions I was complaining about, just this insistence on creating article on war zones where not many people will want to visit at the moment. Also sceptical on Libertarianmoderate's knowledge of the current situation to state a restaurant or hotel is still in business in these places. Or that fact creating warning of war zone where there is not one. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:45, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Some information about banners
Looking through the Kilis article history I noticed that you added a banner that was removed. So I'd like to inform a little about how banner images should be.

First, notice the width and height of the two images. The first banner image has the correct size, and the second banner image has incorrect size.





You attempted to turn the second image into a banner, but it has the wrong dimensions. If you want to add a banner image to an article, ask Traveler100 or Granger if the image is acceptable first.

Don't worry, when I first started editing I did not know this either. All the best, Selfie City (talk) 00:26, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks
I noticed in one of your recent article creations that you used the proper listing format. Thank you. Selfie City (talk) 20:32, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Midlothian (Illinois)
Back in what I would now call my early days on Wikivoyage, one of the WV administrators worked with me to create an article about a really fascinating place (at least to me), Guadalupe Island. I think working on the Guadalupe article with another admin really helped me get experience using Wikivoyage.

I think the Midlothian, Illinois article has some potential with the combination of an editor who knows the place (like you) and an editor with quite a lot of experience and knowledge in formatting, etc. (like me &mdash; notice how humble I'm being here). So how would you feel about doing some more work with me on this article? I think this could become one of WV's better articles, and perhaps with time and effort even reach guide status. Selfie City (talk) 22:42, 19 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Sure. But remember I do have my hands full in Syria, of all places. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 22:49, 19 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes, okay. Any time you want to do it. Selfie City (talk) 22:51, 19 August 2018 (UTC)


 * I noticed that you have done some work on the Midlothian article. However, I'm confused by this edit, which seemingly randomly removed a couple listings. Why was that? Selfie City (talk) 00:13, 20 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The hotels weren't in Midlothian, and the mall had no info. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 00:22, 20 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Oh, I see. Thanks. Selfie City (talk) 02:17, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Phone number formatting
I notice that you have been adding phone numbers to listings, which is great, but you have been adding them in this format: (708) 388-3500 (as an example I am using one of the phone numbers you added to a listing in Alsip). However, the correct phone number format we use here is +1 708 388-3500. Please use the +1 phone number format when you add phone numbers to articles in future. Thanks! All the best, --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:55, 21 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Also, have I got this right? Just wanted to check. --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:56, 21 August 2018 (UTC)


 * +1 is specifically the international dialling code for the United States. Use the code appropriate for whichever country the listing is in (this can be found with a Google search easily enough.) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:18, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Country code is also stated on the Wikivoyage country page. Most countries you remove the zero from the area code but there are a couple of exceptions like Italy. Just look at another page in the same country for examples. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:32, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Suggesting an activity for you
Take a look at the articles in Category:Stub articles and see if you can add more information to them and also format to standard Wikivoyage style with listing templates containing information. --Traveler100 (talk) 11:45, 23 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Okay, I fixed the template for Angono and added a couple more listings. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 15:01, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
 * How are you creating listings? Are you aware of the icons on the edit page that generate listings of the correct format? The icon of building for See a bike rider for Do a bed for Sleep etc. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:50, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm just going to Templates, typing in listing, and filling it out from there. —The preceding comment was added by Libertarianmoderate (talk • contribs)
 * LM, check out this picture. If you're using the wikicode editor (not the visual editor), it should look pretty much like this when you're editing an article. Now try clicking the buttons I've marked with red in the picture, this will add the listings with just a click. :) There are also some handy tools for adding a photo from commons or a wikilink to an existing Wikivoyage page. --ϒpsilon (talk) 17:15, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually, LM, there's another way to do it, and that's the way I do it. Go to Templates, but instead of typing "listing" type either "eat", "do", "sleep", or whatever section you're going to add the listing to. Then it will give you the correct template option. Thanks. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:49, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
 * For the record, it's also good to see the number of stub articles going down now, and hopefully while this happens we don't see the number of outlines go up too much (at the time of this writing, it is at 12902). ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:58, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Progress so far with the stub articles
I've upgraded LM's stub article creations to outlines because they have the basic article template and the opening paragraph. However, that does not mean work on improving them should be stopped, since they still need plenty of work. The ones I have upgraded to outline, so you can keep track of them, are the following:


 * Salman Pak
 * Palos Heights
 * Maroua
 * Kaga-Bandoro
 * Deraa
 * Diffa
 * Centralia (Kansas)
 * Buford (Wyoming)
 * Buba
 * Dosso
 * Radibu
 * Baqubah
 * Accomac (Pennsylvania)
 * Bol (Chad)
 * Altorf (Illinois)

I hope that all of these will reach usable status in, say, a month? I think we could all work together on this. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:42, 24 August 2018 (UTC)


 * As a result of upgrading to outline status, the number of outline articles has seen a spike from about 12,900 to 12,919. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:44, 24 August 2018 (UTC)


 * I don't think the articles about war zones and other dangerous areas can be improved that much and I don't think their improvement will have too strong an effect on WV because very few travelers will actually visit them. But I think some of the American destinations, particularly those in Illinois, could be turned into quality articles if we wanted them to be. Unfortunately, the Chad city articles are not great (although the country article is actually not bad), and I'm not sure how much can be done about that &mdash; for example, Bol (Chad). Also from what I can tell Buford, Wyoming is not exactly a thriving community. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 05:12, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

"Obama was a Muslim President" and related edits
At 21:16 on August 25 you added the word "Muslim" to a description about President Obama in the Presidents of the United States article. Unfortunately, like the Londonistan redirect you created and the reason you were blocked several weeks ago, you seem to be making extremely opinionated statements in some of things you're editing. The problem is, this website is a wiki. People around the world can read about the articles and contributions you've made, from President Obama to an inhabitant of London.

Edits like your addition to the President Obama description only create problems, because they are soon undone by other editors and really do not help the WV community. These problematic edits also mean that we cannot rely on all of your edits being trustworthy, and therefore your edits have to take the time of administrators and other users who then must go through your edits and make sure they are factual and unbiased. Also, statements like "Obama was a Muslim" do not support the level of accuracy that is best for Wikivoyage, since Wikivoyage ought to be a website providing statements that are not issues of political debate or controversy, or even conspiracy theories, but instead stating plain facts.

You probably don't know about the quite dramatic user ban that occurred recently with what had been a pretty trustworthy user, ArticCynda. It's not best to dig up the past but since this is a related topic in my opinion it makes sense to mention it now. Here it goes:


 * Back in July, ArticCynda added some rather extreme statements about the International District (or "Ghetto", as ArticCynda called it) of Brussels. After a lot of discussion the statements were changed to sound more neutral, only to discover that ArticCynda was adding more "if you get out alive" kind of statements to the newly-created Brussels/International District article. It wasn't long before it was discovered that ArticCynda had also been adding antisemitic statements to a couple Brussels articles, and after some more discussion the user was banned indefinitely. The ban occurred only a couple weeks ago, so for me and many other experienced users it is still pretty fresh in our minds.

LM, I don't want to see you go down that road, since I think your edits on WV are becoming more constructive and better. The above sections of your talk page show that I and other editors have put a quite a lot of time and effort into seeing that you learn more about WV (Wikivoyage, that is) and that you become a very useful, constructive contributor. So please, help that become possible by not adding your personal political opinions to Wikivoyage pages. Problematic edits are not going to help us become "a free, complete, up-to-date, and reliable worldwide travel guide." The Presidents of the US article is problematic enough without problematic edits, which only make it worse. So please reconsider the above-mentioned edits you've made so that you do not make them again. I'd like to see you become a very useful contributor because useful contributors are needed on WV, but your using the website to make problematic political statements will not help you achieve a high level of respect among other users and administrators.

All the best,

---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:47, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKGdkqfBICw. He admitted he was a Muslim. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 02:04, 26 August 2018 (UTC)


 * You're missing the point. Your recent comment makes clear that you do not fully understand the issue here. This is more than just a question of Obama's religion, but instead that you need to stop inserting redirects, words, etc. that are opinionated and do not help the WV community grow. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:09, 26 August 2018 (UTC)


 * BTW, I supported Obama in 2012. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 02:13, 26 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Sure you did. I'm just going to tell you flat-out to watch it. This kind of crap doesn't fly here, period. Listen carefully to what SelfieCity says. You can spew whatever "arguments" you want about how Obama really meant he was a Muslim on the "moderate" boards you no doubt frequent - not here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:17, 26 August 2018 (UTC)


 * And I hold the liberal position on drug policy, environmentalism, same sex unions, and a moderate one on countless more. Some of my positions are even more left-wing than Clinton, Obama, Pelosi, and Schumer. The only strong conservative positions I hold are that I'm pro-life and pro-school choice. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 02:21, 26 August 2018 (UTC)


 * And you've shown some tendency toward racist edits, which is the issue right now. I don't really care what your politics are. They're not relevant, as long as you follow SelfieCity's advice to stick to facts and avoid tendentious edits. Editors here have all sorts of political opinions. We don't block people for their political opinions, but we have blocked people who insisted on making things inaccurate, whether to inject racism and religious prejudice into the texts of articles or edit war by repeatedly whitewashing one dictatorship or another in a way that's unhelpful to travellers. Don't be one of those folks. Here, we don't have a slogan of "serve the people", but we do have the traveller comes first. Keep that as your watchword. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:27, 26 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Ikan Kekek, good comment. Stick to facts and LM, you'll be fine. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:00, 26 August 2018 (UTC)


 * LM: I think it's also important to mention here that this is closely tied into the great number stub article creations you've been doing since you signed up. You can see in this section that you were told not to create new articles, but within a few days you were creating multiple region articles and I had to tell you to create more lower-level destination articles to make up for all the new regions. When I look at your page creation log it's clear that you have created a lot of articles &mdash; compare that list to mine, and I've been on Wikivoyage longer than you. I put some work into Midlothian (Illinois), one of your article creations, and I'd like to see you do similar work on other articles you've created, particularly those in Illinois. If you stick to destination articles (excluding war zones), itineraries, and non-controversial travel topics, this will not be a problem. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:34, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm done
If stating a fact, a fact that was just one word long, is a bannable offense, then I'm shutting my account down. Goodbye, adios, au reviour, dasvedanyah, and whatever you people say in Iraqistan. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 22:15, 26 August 2018 (UTC)


 * LM, I don't want to see you go over this, because mentioning Obama was not a bannable offense in my opinion. All we (me and Ikan Kekek) are saying is that you do not make those types of edits. I'd rather see you stay, since in my opinion leaving the website over this issue would be unreasonable. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:50, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
 * LM, I'm also sorry to see you go, but if you cite an obvious slip-of-the-tongue, which he corrected immediately, as a "fact", and ignore the verifiable fact that he was a practising, church-going, self-identified Christian throughout his presidency and most of his adulthood, I think you have trouble distinguishing between reality and what you want to believe. I think you have bigger issues that you need to deal with than contributing to an online travel guide. Ground Zero (talk) 00:44, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Apology #2
Actually, if I apologized for everything I've done wrong here one at a time, this would probably be my 30th apology. You gave me a second chance after the WT Satan incident, and I blew it. I once again injected politics into an area of my life where their role should be minimal, if they should have a place at all. I called Obama a Muslim in public, created joke redirects, and a whole bunch of other stuff too. For that, I apologize. Also, User:SmokinTourist909 and User:Zayn Hussein were two sockpuppet accounts created in an attempt at a clean slate. Neither was Telstra, both of them were mine. When you blocked Smokin' Tourist, you blocked one of my IP addresses. If you don't plan to block my account, could you please unblock SmokinTourist so I can edit more easily? I promise I won't use either one.


 * Also, were you SoftAngelFromHell? Just checking. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:51, 28 August 2018 (UTC)


 * You already knew from the LibMod incident that sockpuppets are not allowed here. Earlier, I said that "we're at a point with [you] where the next problematic edit ought to involve a userban discussion" and later added that I doubted that such a userban "would have met with much resistance". Given that this is the problematic edit that would have generated that userban for you regardless, I see no need to take action here. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:26, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with Andre. Going the sockpuppet route, and with a seemingly Muslim name, doesn't indicate a lot of understanding on your part of what you've done. Ground Zero (talk) 17:59, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 * LM, does the acronym PCV ring a bell? ϒpsilon (talk) 18:12, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The actions and apologies can go in a cycle forever. I think generally it's best to accept apologies when they are genuine; however, when an editor has shown that they do not have the same interests in improving the site (e.g.: creating numerous stub articles about towns in war zones is not really what WV is trying to do), and won't be cooperative, etc., it's different. Let me put it this way: if we take Andre's route on this, it won't be the end of the world. --Comment by Selfie City  (talk about my contributions ) 20:59, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 * If you want to stay, I suggest you work on some of the hundreds of articles you created (on war zones and other places) in a user sub-page. And to be brutally frank, by creating so many stubs and bare outlines, you've increased the workload of the rest of the editing community here who have to 1. tidy up those articles and 2. eventually add content to those articles. You will only earn the respect of the community by expanding what you started and laying off inserting political opinions, especially conspiracy theories. Gizza ( roam ) 22:14, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Forget it.
I'm leaving this trash heap behind once and for all. I'm starting my own travel wiki. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 23:01, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 * That's an odd choice of words for someone who tried to trash the place on his way out with hate-filled childish vandalism. Things will definitely be better if you go and defecate in your own living room. Ground Zero (talk) 01:56, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * LM, I doubt that you'll start your own travel wiki. You'll probably go on to create problems on WT if you haven't been banned there already. I'm just tired of this, always your search for attention, trying to be the center of things. --Comment by Selfie City  (talk  about my contributions ) 16:35, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * And if you want to leave the website, please just do it now, and don't keep coming back here to vandalize, create problems, push buttons, etc. --Comment by Selfie City  (talk  about my contributions ) 16:36, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * And to keep things in the picture you are still creating sockpuppet accounts and getting blocked for doing just that. We laid out what identified your sockpuppets so you knew exactly how to avoid us. But we still found out when you tried, again, to use a sockpuppet account after we told you to stop wasting your time. A recent discussion thread in WV:Vandalism in progress shows that we have tools that we can use so we can identify your sockpuppet accounts.


 * You can’t win. You may as well stop trying. I’m not boasting; I’m stating the facts. --Comment by Selfie City  (talk  about my contributions ) 01:07, 12 September 2018 (UTC)


 * I have crossed a couple of those comments out; there just too mean-spirited for my liking as to what I say. Such comments are not what LM needs. An indefinite ban says enough. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 01:12, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

LM apology, originally posted in the pub
I'm going to copy the apology here:


 * "Also, I didn't mean any of that stuff I said. The Holocaust really happened, Obama is not a Muslim, and none of you deserve to be robbed, shot, etc. and I definitely wouldn't want any of you to go to hell. I was just really mad at you for blocking me. Apart from the vandalism edits I made after my ban, I've been creating sockpuppets in order to get back on here with a clean slate. I only vandalized as revenge for being blocked. I know I pretty much broke every policy in the book. And I've regretted it ever since. I don't even expect you to consider letting me back on. I only seek to apologize because it's the right thing to do. -Libertarianmoderate Wikiwrecker322 (talk) 16:49, 30 September 2018 (UTC)"

--Comment by Selfie City  (talk about my <font color="#ac6600">contributions ) 22:22, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Legalize all caps!
I don't know about you, but don't you want to be able to use ALL CAPS without being BANNED for life (or 3 days)? Well now you can! At least, you'll be able to if you support this proposal.Nothing gets people's attention like ALL CAPS!!!!. If you want to convince someone NOT to visit Burundi, for example, lowercase might get people to reconsider, like the US State Department advises you to do (Burundi is only moderately dangerous). But if you REALLY want to scare the pants off of people, tell them, ALL TRAVEL TO DARRA ADAM KHEL SHOULD BE CONSIDERED VERY DANGEROUS AT THIS TIME!! Libertarianmoderate (talk) 00:45, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * what you're proposing, libertarianmoderate, is a change to Wikivoyage:capitalization, so the discussion should take place at wikivoyage talk:capitalization. i can't say that i am keen about the idea, but let's see what other editors say there. i'll copy the discussion over. regards, ground zero. 01:30, 1 august 2018.
 * r u tryna abolish caps completely? maybe we shd giv up all editorial stndrds n jus right however the hell we want ;) tt! (talk) 22:47, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm done
If stating a fact, a fact that was just one word long, is a bannable offense, then I'm shutting my account down. Goodbye, adios, au reviour, dasvedanyah, and whatever you people say in Iraqistan. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 22:36, 26 August 2018 (UTC)


 * If you don't understand why what you did is a problem, perhaps it's for the best that you're leaving. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:39, 26 August 2018 (UTC)


 * As I stated on your talk page, I don't want to see you go, especially over this (which weren't probably not going to ban you over). You can still contribute to the site despite writing what you wrote, but at the same time I think for now you need to focus on improving articles, not creating many stub articles at once. Also you should probably avoid writing about what could be considered controversial subjects (e.g. political ones), since those are where the problems have emerged. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:55, 26 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Selfie City, regarding this message and the one you left on LM's talk page: making a demonstrably false, politically and racially charged, and patently offensive statement like "Obama is a Muslim", after numerous previous warnings about similar offensive edits, absolutely is a bannable offense, and I highly doubt that a user block for LM in the event of another repeat offense, as I suggested here, would have met with much resistance. I continue to admire your enthusiasm, but you're still new enough here that it's advisable for you to defer to the judgment of longer-standing members of the community on certain questions, such as where to draw the line between good-faith rookie mistakes and bona fide bad conduct. Please also see w:Wikipedia:Don't be high-maintenance. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:56, 26 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes, I did not see the most recent two comments on that talk page until just now. Sorry, since I can see I missed something important there. If you want to go ahead and make a decision on this, go ahead, since you have much more experience than me at that sort of thing. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:08, 27 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Also, yes, I can see how LM could use a threat to leave in this situation so he could get some sort of compromise, and it's pretty obvious that no-one here wants to compromise (honestly, I don't, either). So in the end of the day, if LM wants to leave, absolutely they can leave. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:10, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I just learned that that Wikipedia page has a link to GoodBye. I love that page.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:25, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree rather strongly with what Andre says above. "If you don't understand why what you did is a problem, perhaps it's for the best that you're leaving."
 * I'm less certain about his comments to SelfieCity, "but you're still new ...", but I can see his point. Pashley (talk) 00:21, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * LM has made it clear that he cannot distinguish between reality and what s/he wants to believe, which I think is important skill for someone contributing to an online travel guide. It's unfortunate that s/he has turned out to be this way, but not unfortunate that s/he is choosing to leave. I think we learned an important lesson with ArcticCynda that people like that cannot leave their prejudices at the door. Ground Zero (talk) 00:47, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I also agree with Andre's statement. Hopefully it won't drag on for as long as it did with ArticCynda. Gizza ( roam ) 01:35, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * And LM is back. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:55, 28 August 2018 (UTC)