User talk:202.67.23.223

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Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:25, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Question about "Iya Kei Campground"
Hi. I am translating the page about the Iya Valley into French. You wrote that "Iya Kei Campground" is sometimes called "Iya Valley Campsite" on some signs. Do you mean it is written "Iya Valley Campsite" in English (in this case I should not translate it) or is it written in Japanese (in this case I would translate it). Cheers – Fabimaru (talk) 18:43, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Hello, I don't know if you can read this, as there is no "reply" option for this question in Talk. I appreciate the question, but sorry to say, please realize you are opening a can of worms....

There are multiple names used for this campground in English on local road signs, town maps, and official tourism websites. The actual name for this place is 祖谷渓キャンプ村 which can be best translated as "Iya Gorge Camp Village", however that direct translation is not used anywhere. There is no English on the campground's website, but the road sign at the entrance to the site reads in English "Iyakei Campground" (of note: this is a government produced sign, and the campground is government owned). However, other newer government produced road signs at road intersections farther away giving direction to this place state in English "Iya Valley Campsite", while websites and maps say one of those or some combination (Iyakei campsite, Iya Valley Campground, etc). Obviously, there can be confusion.

In regards to the term "Iya-kei" there is a lot of discrepancy and difficulty with this in how its been commonly used and how to ever maybe resolve it. Firstly, the name "Iya" 祖谷 itself actually uses the chinese character "valley" 谷 within it, so the name truly translates as "i valley" (there is a lot of flexibility with the "valley" character meaning, but it essentially means 'a low point where water may or may not flow'). So to say "Iya valley" it would almost be akin to saying "Fuji-san mountain", which might seem redundant but is actually necessary so that someone can best say the term an be understood (if an English speaker arrived saying "Where is the i valley?" to an English speaking Japanese person, the Japanese person wouldn't understand. Just the same as when referring to "Mont Blanc", such that saying "where is Blanc mountain" or worse "where is white mountain" would be equally bizarre to a Frenchman).

Secondly, the term "kei" 渓 is used and/or added to denote a valley which is deeper, steeper and truly between two mountains ("kei" means steep valley). Sometimes this is taken further, including when speaking of Iya, by using the term "keikoku" 渓谷 to describe a very steep valley, where "koku" 谷 also means "valley" (notice that its the same character used in "Iya" but pronounced differently) so that it reads 祖谷渓谷, is pronounced "Iya-keikoku" and literally means "i valley, steep valley, valley".

(Are you regretting asking about how to translate this yet? Well, it gets worse.)

People locally refer to the entire valley as "Iya", which makes sense, and use the "kei" and/or "keikoku" additions to denote the section of the valley described in the wiki as "Iya Gorge" which is the steeper, and undeveloped section of Iya at the beginning of the valley but only accounts for about 25% of the whole valley (Though the whole valley is pretty steep, but this place is a bit steeper). The use of "kei" is also used to denote that it is a special, more impressive area that tourists should focus on for its beauty. So to avoid confusion in English, the term "kei" 渓 might best be translated in this case as "gorge" (since "Iya Valley" is already being used as general nomenclature for the whole valley), and this use of "Iya Gorge" is sometimes done on some English websites and private business brochures, but not very often. Other times it is simply written in English as "Iya-kei" or in the case of TripAdvisor its written "Iya-kei valley". Confused yet?

But the major dilemma is this: on government produced road signs, maps, websites, and brochures some bureaucrat at some point many decades ago opened a dictionary, saw that "kei" can simply mean "valley" and the name just stuck. So even though Iya-kei is a small section of Iya, this area is now referred to as "Iya Valley" officially as a singular point within the valley, even though the same map will also state "Iya Valley" when referring to the whole valley. So while street signs from far away will direct someone to the "Iya Valley" and businesses will state they are located in the "Iya Valley", and maps and brochures point out various sights within the "Iya Valley", but once you get there, when you stand in the physical center of the valley itself you will see a road directional sign pointing down the main valley road stating "Iya Valley 15km" as if you aren't yet in the Iya Valley, even though you are. (Yes, it is utterly ridiculous)

But as far as what to do in French, good luck. By the way, this name confusion isn't just for Iya-kei. There are also major naming problems for other local places like the Bukeyashiki historic house, Ochiai Hamlet, Scarecrow village, Oku-iya monorail, peeing boy statue, and several mountain. But whats written on the wiki, to the best of my ability, is what exists written in English on what might be physically encountered on a road sign if traveling here.