Talk:World War II in China

Pagebanner
Any ideas for a banner on this and Japanese colonial empire? --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 10:37, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * What about this (pinging because pings don't work when you don't give a signature) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:44, 21 August 2021 (UTC)




 * I'd prefer something that shows the characteristic field hat of the Japanese soldiers. See for what it looks like. That will make it more instantly recognisable. The dog2 (talk) 14:03, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I didn't have much luck finding something like that picture. The closest I could find was: 0964.a.0545.tif SelfieCity


 * OK, in that case, the first one is fine then. Another thing I could think of is the war cemetery in Tengchong, Yunnan, if there are good images of that. The dog2 (talk) 18:53, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The first one &mdash; the cropped image &mdash; has a resolution too low for a pagebanner. Most images from the war have low resolution. The one the right is one of the few with high resolution and could be used. The war cemetery is more likely to have high resolution images as a current site. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 18:56, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, there are not many photos of the cemetery on Wikimedia commons. The photos are mainly on Chinese web-sites. But there is a photo on Wikimedia commons of the entrance here: where you can see the name of the cemetery in Chinese as well. The dog2 (talk) 23:03, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I hope to visit the cemetery next year and take some more photos for Commons. I had originally planned to go to Tengchong last year but my plans got derailed by the pandemic. Another place that might look good on the banner would be the Battle of Mount Song Memorial in Longling County, but we don't currently have any photos of it on Commons. I will try to get there next year too if possible. Longling County is not far from Tengchong. STW932 (talk) 10:54, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the help. Whenever you manage to take these pictures, sending me a ping would be appreciated as I don’t currently have this page on my watchlist. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 11:20, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Would there be any on flickr that we can use? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:45, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Good news! I finally made it to Yunnan and I was able to visit multiple WW2 sites there, including not only the war cemetery in Tengchong and the memorial park at Mount Song, but also several other sites. I just finished uploading my photos of the Mount Song Battle Site Memorial Park, which you can see here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Songshan_Battle_Site_Memorial_Park
 * Here are a couple of banners I made based on my photos of the memorial park: STW932 (talk) 11:08, 27 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I will upload my photos of the cemetery later. STW932 (talk) 11:08, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Nice work STW932. I think my favourite is banner 2 (i.e. the first one). -- SHB2000  (talk &#124; contribs &#124; meta) 11:10, 27 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I also prefer the first one. Thank you for taking these photos! --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 14:43, 27 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Me too, but they're both excellent, so I hope both can be used somewhere. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:03, 28 August 2022 (UTC)


 * The second one can be used for an article about Longling County. STW932 (talk) 04:57, 28 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I prefer the first one for this article too.


 * If you have a good photo of the war cemetery in Tengchong, I think it will be a good one to include under the section on Yunnan. The dog2 (talk) 16:24, 29 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I've uploaded some of my photos of the cemetery but I'm not sure which one would be the most suitable one to put on this page. See here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Graveyard_of_the_National_Heroes (My photos are the ones with English file names). STW932 (talk) 09:13, 30 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Below is a small selection: STW932 (talk) 09:54, 30 August 2022 (UTC)




 * I've picked one that shows some of the gravestones as well as the large memorial, but please feel free to change it. The dog2 (talk) 16:06, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

World War II sites in Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan
What shall we do about World War II sites in Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan? Is it okay to list them on this page? STW932 (talk) 06:29, 21 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Dunno. I was going to say all were part of China then, but Taiwan was a longtime Japanese colony at the time, so I'm thinking it doesn't belong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:46, 21 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I'd include them & mention the Battle of Khalkhin Gol. Pashley (talk) 09:10, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree with Pashley here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:41, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * That is my position as well. It may be worth mentioning that at least some of the sites in Taiwan either have some historical connection to events on the Mainland or display artefacts from the Mainland. For instance the Republic of China Armed Forces Museum in Taipei has a permanent exhibition about the Second Sino-Japanese War that appears to be mainly focused on the battles on the Mainland. Also, in New Taipei, there is an old residence, which used to be the home of General Li Youbang, founder and leader of the Taiwanese Volunteer Force, which fought alongside Nationalist armies on the Mainland. STW932 (talk) 13:55, 21 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Hong Kong was a British colony at the time, so the Japanese weren't actually fighting the Chinese military in Hong Kong, but instead fought the British military, backed by Canadian and Indian troops.


 * Speaking of Taiwan, there used to be a comfort women museum in Taipei, but unfortunately it closed down last year. They claimed they were moving to a new location, but who knows if it will ever reopen, and the current Taiwanese government is pro-Japan (since the DPP was founded by Japanese-era colonial administrators and their descendants), so I can't fathom them wanting to support a museum that paints Japan in a bad light. And whether or not such a museum is even financially viable is questionable, given that the young Taiwanese are very keen to distance themselves from China and emphasise their historical links to Japan instead. That said, there are numerous Martyrs' Shrines in Taiwan that were built during the era of one-party KMT rule, and many WWII soldiers and generals are enshrined in them. The one in Taipei is a major tourist attraction that people go to watch the changing of the guard ceremony. The dog2 (talk) 22:33, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The Japanese may not have fought the regular Chinese army in Hong Kong. However, there were Communist guerrilla soldiers from Guangdong Province operating in Hong Kong. See East River Column: Hong Kong Guerrillas in the Second World War and After by Sui-jeung Chan. There are museums about the East River Column in Shenzhen and Dongguan. STW932 (talk) 07:10, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There were Chinese communist guerrillas fighting in Malaya too. It was called the Malayan People's Anti-Japanese Army (MPAJA). After the Japanese surrendered, they turned on the British instead, and that's why there was the Malayan Emergency. The dog2 (talk) 15:25, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I would think you'd be aware that not all Malayan/Malaysian communists were Chinese-Malayans, but in any case, Chinese-Malayans shouldn't be conflated with people from Guangdong operating in Hong Kong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:59, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Not all, but the vast majority were ethnic Chinese. The Malays and Indians for the most part welcomed Japanese rule in the initial stages of the occupation, but did eventually turn against the Japanese when Japanese rule turned out to be even more brutal than British rule. And the concept of Malayan/Malaysian citizenship didn't exist at that time. The English-educated ethnic Chinese (like Lee Kuan Yew, since Singapore was considered to be part of Malaya at that time) may have seen themselves as Malayan, but the Chinese-educated ones mostly considered themselves to be Chinese citizens. I know for a fact that there was a Singaporean Chinese who represented China at the 1948 Olympics as part of their soccer team (the guy in this video). And there was in fact quite a bit of a back and forth flow of Chinese people between China and Southeast Asia. If you go to Xiamen for instance, you'll notice that the local dialect there has a number of loan words from Malay (eg. the word for "coffee").


 * And also, China was the main sponsor behind the communist insurgencies in Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand throughout the second half of the twentieth century. They no longer sponsor communist insurgencies abroad today because when Lee Kuan Yew met with Deng Xiaoping, he insisted that China cut off funding for the communist insurgencies in Southeast Asia as a pre-condition for establishing diplomatic relations with Singapore. The dog2 (talk) 16:14, 22 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I'm well aware of the history of the Malayan Communist Party. You didn't mention that there were Orang Asli who assisted it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:21, 22 September 2021 (UTC)


 * We seem to be getting a bit off-topic here! Actually, although I'm in favour of including WW2 sites in Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan on this page, I'm a little concerned that some people might get the impression that we are not being politically neutral. Perhaps we need some kind of disclaimer similiar to the one on the Taiwan page. On the other hand, if our position is that WW2 sites in Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan don't belong here, we could simply add a statement saying that due to historical reasons, WW2 sites in those territories have been listed separately on the Pacific War page. STW932 (talk) 13:08, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Sure, having a disclaimer is fine. And to be clear, I'm not taking a stand on Hong Kong or Taiwan independence here. I'm just highlighting some of the complexities behind the issues. And also, at that time, the distinction between overseas Chinese and Chinese citizens wasn't clear cut. Most overseas-born ethnic Chinese saw themselves as first and foremost Chinese, and therefore were actively involved in the resistance against Japanese rule in China. It's very different from the situation today, where most Chinese-Americans see themselves as first and foremost American, and will therefore without hesitation take up arms to fight for America if America ever goes to war with China. The dog2 (talk) 20:59, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Quote
Do we need the quote from Chiang Kai Shek? I'd say it is worth having, but I want to remove the Chinese text and the bolding.

Other opinions? Pashley (talk) 11:16, 23 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree with you on all points. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:18, 23 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I'd say keep the Chinese text, since it's the original, but remove the bolding. In our articles with non-English quotes, we show both the original and the English translation. See European classical music for an example; there is a quote in Italian by Luciano Pavarotti, and we display both the original Italian and the English translation. The dog2 (talk) 13:09, 23 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Hmmm...I didn't remember that. Point taken. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:41, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

World War II in China and Second Sino-Japanese War
We now call the article "World War II in China", but the first paragraph of the lead does not mention WW II, instead having "Second Sino-Japanese War" as the boldface phrase, which is confusing. We need to restructure the lead to make the article's scope and the two phrases' relation to each other clear. Should we say something along the lines of "The Second Sino-Japanese War made up the Chinese front of World War II"? –LPfi (talk) 06:44, 29 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I edited it. Comments? Pashley (talk) 08:14, 29 August 2022 (UTC)


 * That solves my original concern. I am a little unsure about the statement that the war was fought between Japan and the ROC. Should we tweak that to include the communist and independent opposition? –LPfi (talk) 08:39, 29 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I'd say drop it in the lede & just have something like "the Japanese Empire tried to conquer China". There is already text in the Understand section that covers some of the complications; it likely needs tweaking. Pashley (talk) 11:37, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Tricky history
We currently have:
 * From 1927, the Chinese Communist Party organized an uprising against the nationalist government,

That appears to blame the Communists, but another interpretation is that in 1927 Chiang Kai Shek broke an agreement to co-operate & murdered many of the Communist leaders. See Shanghai massacre. No doubt there were complications beyond that.

What is it appropriate to say about all that in a travel guide? The existing text strikes me as biased & oversimplified, but I doubt I could write anything much better.

Certainly there are sites that can be visited; see World_War_II_in_China and Shanghai/French Concession for example. Pashley (talk) 12:29, 29 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I think we can just say that the communists and nationalists turned on each other, just as we do in the Chinese revolutions article. The dog2 (talk) 16:16, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Guide level?
What does this article need to reach Guide level? /Yvwv (talk) 01:58, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Assam, India
Should locations in India be included? Near the town of Ledo, Assam, India (the last railway station of Indian Railways) are locations of interest to WW2 in China. One is the start of the Stillwell Road, a road from India to China that opened in 1945 and bypassed occupied Burma held by the Japanese and an abandoned airfield in which US planes few over "The Hump" to ferry supplies to China while the road was under construction. Muzzleflash (talk) 18:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I'd say no, because only locations in China are included. Note that no locations in Myanmar are included, either. The larger question is whether the topic should be changed to include locations in Myanmar and India. That would be fine but would require renaming and expansion. Would you propose to change this to World War II in China, Burma and India? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:21, 11 May 2024 (UTC)