Talk:Western Java

Map
The map is incorrect, the western part is missing compared to the map at the Java page. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 13:55, 20 June 2010 (EDT)


 * Yep that map is incorrect as it covers only the political province of West Java. Our definition is different. At some stage I hope to get around to drawing a map of West Java as I have done for Central Java and East Java.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:23, 21 June 2010 (EDT)

=Food= Is it true that oncom is a frequent, if not characteristic, Sundanese ingredient? Briancady413 (talk) 16:46, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, oncom is Sundanese unique food. It made from waste peanut from peanut oil compression/extraction factory, mainly from Central Java. The waste peanut is given oncom fungi to make oncom. I never heard that other areas outside West Java make oncom. The taste is rather bitter.Gsarwa (talk) 15:21, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
 * @Gsarwa Mushroom oncom tastes sweet though. Veracious (talk) 03:28, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Western Java
Wouldn't it be better to rename this page to Western Java, as it does not only include the province of West Java but also Banten and Jakarta? --ErwinFCG (talk) 14:30, 7 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I hadn't thought of it, but that makes sense. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:03, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Regions of Western Java
Something to consider: perhaps in the (near?) future Western Java could be split further in regions, as the number of cities and other destinations is getting quite large, and after all it is a large region with a population of 69 million, and very diverse tourist attractions (cities, mountains, national parks, beaches, islands). The provinces are no useful regions, as the Greater Jakarta metropolitan area spreads into both Banten and West Java. How about regions as follows: If something like this makes sense I can certainly work on these articles, and try to structure all the articles a bit more. --ErwinFCG (talk) 14:38, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) Greater Jakarta or Jabodetabek
 * 2) Banten except for the part in Jabodetabek and the Halimun/Salak national park.
 * 3) Parahyangan (Greater Bandung, Sumedang, Purwakarta, Southern Subang)
 * 4) East Parahyangan (Tasikmalaya, Banjar, Ciamis, Kuningan, Pangandaran, Southern Majalengka)
 * 5) Mountain area west of Parahyangan (name?) (Sukabumi, Cianjur, mountain and volcano regions of Bogor regency, Halimun/Salak national park part in Banten)
 * 6) Northern Coast region (name?) (Karawang, Cirebon, Northern Subang, Northern Majalengka, Indramayu)


 * The question that governs Wikivoyage's regional structure is, Does it best serve the traveler? The population is not at issue. A basic rule of thumb is: Are there about 7-9 destinations having or meriting their own Wikivoyage articles in each of the proposed regions? Keep in mind that just because a city is relatively populous doesn't automatically mean that it's of interest to a visitor. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:20, 14 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Western Java contains now 14 cities+8 Other destinations which suggest it might need a division in the future. However, as of now I don't think it's a critical task. At first, 6 regions is way too much for 14 cities, and new articles will end up being almost empty. Second, other parts of Java (Central Java and East Java) will require the same division, as it will be a bit strange to have only Western Java contain subregions. So I'd suggest, if you have something to say - start adding it to Western Java article + create a new articles if needed. If the number will grow substantially, we come back to this discussion. But pay also attention, that we will need to think about other Java parts as well.--Kiaora (talk) 04:57, 15 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your replies. There are more than 14 cities, which are not all listed on the article. That was the reason I thought a further division might be necessary. See for example Anyer, Cimaja, Karawaci. Anyway, I will at first work on the various articles then, and perhaps later regions can be added. --ErwinFCG (talk) 07:25, 15 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree with this approach. We can revisit this if there is a need to do so later. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:48, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Regions of Western Java 2
The last two weeks I have worked a lot on the city, district, and park articles in Western Java. This is by no means 'complete', but I think I have progressed quite a lot. I have checked an updated most of the existing articles: added banners, (re)written the introduction/understand, clarified and updated go next, added a dynamic map, checked the listings, and added go next listings. In addition, I have created about 30 new articles on the larger towns/cities (e.g. Serang) and on towns/villages with touristic attractions (e.g. Banten (town) and Linggajati). I will certainly continue to update existing articles and add new ones, but I think the time has come to add subregions to Western Java (there are now 44 city articles, 5 districts of Jakarta, 1 airport, and 5 national parks).

Two weeks ago I already proposed a division of subregions. While working on it I have slightly adjusted it, and my proposal is as below, with already a map created. I have added a small description to each region to explain their rationales.

The most arbitary might be the Bogor Raya region, but considering that most of the touristic destinations in Bogor regency are shared with Sukabumi (Halimun Salak NP) and/or Cianjur (Puncak, Gede Pangrango NP), I think it makes sense to make this one region. The northern parts of Bogor (e.g. Cileungsi/Cibinong) would fit better with Greater Jakarta, but these places are not touristic anyway. In general, I think the regions like this are very clear and well-defined. --ErwinFCG (talk) 10:38, 29 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm no expert on the different subregions of Western Java, but you have my blessing. But let's see what others think and keep this discussion open for at least a couple of days. I'd like to solicit the opinions of User:Kiaora, User:Othello95, User:Gsarwa and User:JarrahTree, if he's around. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:51, 29 September 2016 (UTC)


 * only just. One of the things that really put me off this sort of thing here in wikivoyage - were the divisions of areas within Australian cities - was the arbitrary nature - no actual correlation with local conditions and very rarified versions of very subjective conceptual imaginary spatial constructions - the thing is if this was being in central java I would have a much better handle - I am not a sundanese cultural area enthusiast, simply because my fieldwork was based on yogya and solo. (there is only so much you can do) However the description given above does have loose geographic parameters and that in itself is encouraging when balanced against indonesian government tourism promotion schemas that try so hard to counter common sense, geography, and western imaginations as to what constitutes java. JarrahTree (talk) 11:01, 29 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I might ask stupid questions, but anyway. Are you sure there is enough information for each of these 6 new region articles? Just because they will contain 7-8 cities each, doesn't automatically mean there is enough data to describe. I understand, a lot of people live there, but if there are a lot of things to see and do? As otherwise all of them (both regions and cities) will be of more enciclopedic nature and will better suite wikipedia rather than travellers and wikivoyage. Second idea, have you considered any alternative ways of splitting Western Java or Java itself? For instance, can we split Java itself differently and divide it say into 5-6 regions? Or East,Central and West Java- is a well established and widely-known division? --Kiaora (talk) 13:15, 29 September 2016 (UTC)


 * (responding specifically to Kiaora...) - not sure where that is going - the west, central and east java are government designated provinces anyway...  I would suspect that the best way is to follow the government boundaries of west, central and east - and not try to create any artificial 5-6 regions, the problem that I expressed above is where artificial regions are created specifically for wikivoyage purposes - separate from established government designations, you are asking for trouble imho JarrahTree (talk) 14:00, 29 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your replies. The division of West/Central/East is well-established indeed. Especially West Java is clearly established because of its different language (Sundanese in most parts of Western Java). I think there is certainly enough information for each of these 6 regions of Western Java. Officially, the region is divided in three provinces (Banten, Jakarta, West Java). However, West Java is still huge, so I divided it further. Also, the province of Jakarta only includes the city itself and not the suburbs, so I propose Greater Jakarta (similar to Tokyo (prefecture)). This division is not official/administrative, but based on landscape and history (although I tried to follow the regency/city borders as much as possible; each region proposed consists of about 6 regencies and/or cities). And I think there is a lot to do, and it will certainly not be encyclopedic. Beaches, about 10 volcanoes that can be climbed, hot spring resorts, 5 national parks, historical villages (e.g. old sultan palaces, but also some with special stories and museums from the colonial time), huge cities including Jakarta and Bandung, etc. I would like to write articles on the subregions, and after that I think the Western Java article itself can be much improved as well (because rather than a list of all places it can give a more thematic overview of things to see, such as the volcanoes). --ErwinFCG (talk) 13:55, 29 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Jarrahtree, I see you are moving the discussion on the regions to other talk pages as well, but I just wanted to add that I think these regions are well-defined, and easy to understand (based on 'The traveller comes first'). Yes, they are artificial (in the sense of not officially government-defined), but the official regions are either too large and not useful (the provinces, as described above), or way too small (the regencies). This definitely means that 'artificial' regions have to be created. However, the regions are propose are all based on real boundaries, either of historic regions (Parahyangan, East Parahyangan, Banten, Bogor Raya), official definitions (Greater Jakarta, Banten except Greater Jakarta), or geographical features (the three mountain regions as well as the North Coast as flat land region). In addition, I have used the regency boundaries in all cases, to not draw artificial boundaries, except for Subang and Majalengka which are clearly both in the flat region and in the mountain region, and there I used the toll road. --ErwinFCG (talk) 14:26, 29 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Erwin - I like your reply, and agree that sometimes in some cases some 'real' boundaries are not as effective as artificial - and your general response makes me feel that whatevr you come up with is well reasoned - thanks for the effort to explain JarrahTree (talk) 00:11, 30 September 2016 (UTC)


 * The important question are (foreign) tourists need very detail regions? Geographically north West Java is low land and south West Java is mountaineaous, although certainly it have also beaches, but only a few cliffs contrary with Bali. Consequences of developing of toll roads are new tourist sites can be found and some cities are not lure tourists anymore such as Cianjur or Purwakarta. So, Bali, Jakarta and West Java should be updated regularl;y to catch up the progress.Gsarwa (talk) 15:21, 29 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Gsarwa - many foreign tourists are content to go where they are 'led' by either being part of tour groups and use tourist information or guidebooks - others really want to have details about every part of a region and its smaller components and they need details JarrahTree (talk) 00:11, 30 September 2016 (UTC)


 * @ErwinFCG. I see you are pretty competent in this field =) which is quite important for the person who is going to work on the new regions.
 * And just to add a few more concerns here. The number of topics in Java: 3 main regions with potentially 50 destinations each, plus regional articles will result into about 150-200 articles in total. Which is for unprepared tourist is way over his needs. I. e. even briefly looking through them might take days. So the key point here would be to create a good regional division and then creating a very clear overview of the available content and placing it into Java, Westert/Central/Eastern Java articles (and to the lesser degree in their sub-regions). --Kiaora (talk) 13:44, 30 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you all again for the additional comments. I indeed like to think I am rather knowledgeable when it comes to Western Java (I have been to each of the six subregions I propose multiple times). I have been a few times to Central Java, and only once to East Java, so for those regions it will be a bit more difficult for me. Nevertheless, I think at least for Western Java these subregions will be useful. From there I can then work my way up to the Western Java and Java articles, to provide the overviews (e.g. a 'See: Volcanoes' section explaining about how many volcanoes there are, which ones are the most famous, and which ones are the easiest to visit, with links to the relevant region/city/NP articles) and to make sure the 'Cities' section is no longer a list of all towns and cities. I might start tonight or tomorrow on one of the subregion articles as an example. --ErwinFCG (talk) 14:03, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
 * There it is: example of an article for Banten region. Unless anyone disagrees I will start tomorrow to implement the new subregions. --ErwinFCG (talk) 20:45, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Cities and other destinations
After the discussion above I have now created all six subregion articles (I think all at least usable, if not guide*), and added the regionlist template with the map to this article. I will also update the remainder of this article (e.g. See and Do), but I already updated the lists for Cities and Other destinations. I have selected 8 of both (so in line with the 5-9 rule), but I would like to ask input on what others think about the choice of destinations. I have tried to have them spread across the region, and a mixture of beaches, volcanoes, and historic attractions.


 * if I understand the rules correctly, all subregions except North Coast would now be guide status (?). --ErwinFCG (talk) 22:46, 4 October 2016 (UTC)


 * See Region guide status. The thing that usually prevents a region article from being a Guide is as follows:


 * Gives you different choices for which linked destinations (i.e., the 5 to 9 item cities, subregions, and other destinations lists) to visit (all usable status or better)


 * Are all the cities and other destinations at least Usable? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:00, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Okay, thank you. For some of the subregions that is indeed an issue, mainly because not all towns have an 'Eat' section yet. For Greater Jakarta however, all cities/ODs (and also all districts of Jakarta) are usable or guide, and I think the article itself is also good enough to be guide. I am a bit confused though by the explanation of the Region Guide status though, for two reasons:


 * "Has different choices for accommodation (there is not even a Sleep section in the standard Region template?) and eating/drinking, and information on multiple attractions and things to do. Listings and layout closely match the manual of style. (there are no 'listings', because they are not supposed to be in a Region article, but in the underlying city articles, right?) For huge city articles, all district articles are at least "usable" status. There are clear explanations of multiple ways to get in, clear information on getting around, and suggestions for where to go next, with one-liner descriptions."


 * Apart from those two issues (Sleep and Listings), I am confident that Greater Jakarta is at Guide status. --ErwinFCG (talk) 11:15, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * You're right: There shouldn't be specific listings, and I think that language in Region guide status should be changed. And yeah, if there's nothing special to say about the style or range of eateries or sleeping accommodations in the region, it's fine to leave those sections out. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:26, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I think we should start a discussion either in the Traveller's Pub or at the talk page of Region Guide Status as to how exactly the new wording should look like, because I do agree that a change would appear in order. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:26, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I think the thread should be at Wikivoyage talk:Region guide status. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:01, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Guide status - to Star and/or DotM?
I have worked a lot on the Western Java article and all sub-articles, and I have just upgraded the article status to Guide. All sections of the main article have elaborated text. The subarticles are almost all at least Usable, and include 6 subregions (3 Guide, 3 Usable), 47 cities (1 Guide, 41 Usable, 5 Outline), 5 districts (1 Guide, 4 Usable), 5 parks (3 Usable, 2 Outline) and 1 airport (Usable). Within Western Java there are no longer any red links. Apart from this main article of Western Java, the Guide status articles are Greater Jakarta, Banten, Parahyangan, Central Jakarta, and Puncak. I would like input on what should be done to make this article ready to be nominated as a Star article, and/or to nominate it as destination of the month. --ErwinFCG (talk) 14:00, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
 * This is a very well written and organized page. Nice job! I like the balance of images to text, this can be very tricky to get right. If I had to nitpick, you could maybe consolidate the sub-sections under sleep? Or rename "Monuments and architecture" to "Modern monuments" so you don't use the word architecture twice? Pretty small stuff. The only other thing I'm noticing is all the links. They're great at the top, but do we need to link Bandung like 40 times? Again, great work, I'm envious! --ButteBag (talk) 15:10, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reply ButteBag. What do you mean by consolidating the subsections under Sleep? I have followed your suggestion of changing the Monuments section title, and also I have removed many of the links to Bandung, Jakarta, and Greater Jakarta. More comments and suggestions are very welcome! --ErwinFCG (talk) 09:18, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I Guess I was thinking to write the bullet points under "sleep" into paragraphs or something, but now I think that's a bad idea. Sorry you aren't getting more responses to this. Try posting on the Star Nominations page, and on the Traveller's Pub too. I think most talk pages get ignored due to the poor people to task ratio here. --ButteBag (talk) 15:00, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Western Java: to Star status or DotM?
On Monday I asked this same question on the specific article talk page, but to get more responses, the same question here. I have worked a lot on the Western Java article and all its sub-articles, and I have upgraded the article status to Guide. All sections of the main article have elaborated text. The subarticles are almost all at least Usable, and include 6 subregions (3 Guide, 3 Usable), 47 cities (1 Guide, 41 Usable, 5 Outline), 5 districts (1 Guide, 4 Usable), 5 parks (3 Usable, 2 Outline) and 1 airport (Usable), and 1 related itinerary (Usable). Within Western Java there are no longer any red links. Apart from the main article of Western Java, the Guide status articles are Greater Jakarta, Banten, Parahyangan, Central Jakarta, and Puncak.

I would like input on what should be done to make this article ready to be nominated as a Star article, and/or to nominate it as destination of the month. I am looking forward to comments and suggestions! --ErwinFCG (talk) 09:25, 23 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Great work, ErwinFCG. Nothing keeps you from nominating the article for DotM; any guide level article is eligible for the front page, and you'll get pointers for improvements during that nomination process. Star status is more demanding, especially for region articles like this one. To start, all listed subregions, cities and other destinations should be guide status. While there's always some room for exceptions, the majority of the listed subarticles for Western Java seem to be usable. A great achievement, but perhaps just a bit early for a star nomination. You're free to try, though. I'll have a more thorough look later, but to keep things organized, we should keep concrete suggestions for improvements on the article talk page, so I'll do that there. JuliasTravels (talk) 12:39, 23 November 2016 (UTC)