Talk:Tourist Drive 33

Caravans?
Re the unpaved section of the road to Glenworth Valley Outdoor Adventures, it says "it is very advisable to not go in a sedan or any vehicle that is not a 4WD or a caravan." Most roads that are not suitable for a sedan are not suitable for a caravan either. Can someone clarify? Nurg (talk) 11:35, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Will fix that. I always get it confused for a motorhome. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:43, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

add acknowledgement of country here
Would it be a good idea to include the acknowledgement of country in this article? It usually looks like

"Wikivoyage honours the many traditional nations within Australia and pay respect to our Aboriginal Elders past and present of nations surrounding Yengo, Dharug and Darkinjung Countries and acknowledge their wisdom and guidance in protecting this important land"

This is so that we can give respect to the first people's of this land

SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:54, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I think it is very good that you feel the need to say something, but we don't use the first person on Wikivoyage, and a standard statement does not feel right.


 * The itinerary doesn't talk about the indigenous people at all, other than in two listings. I suppose something should be written in Understand and Respect, but let's tell something relevant for the itinerary about these peoples instead of having the formal wording. That of course requires knowledge that is not necessarily easily available. I have that problem with our own Sámi.


 * In some article with very strong connections with the Indigenous Australians, we could have an infobox with this text and its background.


 * –LPfi (talk) 13:29, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * This message was just copy paste but the Yengo people were very connected with their land. More than some others like Darkinjung or Dharug etc. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:35, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Then tell about them in Understand. –LPfi (talk) 13:43, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Tourist Drive 33
Copied from Star nominations/Slush pile Although I'm biased (as I wrote most of the article and its listings) I think that this article is essentially complete. I've asked someone (a mate) to try and use this article as their only source of using Tourist Drive 33 without going to other websites as well. This went successful and I think others'd have a similar experience too. It also has a bit of extras so even using Google Maps won't be needed (although it won't work for parts of it). Please let me know if anything is falling short and I'll fix it.

This also fits what's expected of a star:

Has a map showing the route of the itinerary, identifying landmarks (such as cities) along the way. - ✅

The format either matches the manual of style exactly or is the exception that proves the rule. - ✅

Prose is not only near-perfect grammatically but also tight, effective, and enjoyable. - ✅

At least one good-quality photo accompanies the article; preferably 2-3 showing famous or important attractions. - ✅

Plus if this is successful, we'd have our first star article on the Australian east coast or infact, anywhere that's not in WA and Wikivoyage's first road itinerary star. SHB2000 (talk) 04:46, 14 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Support as nominator. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia)


 * Support: Looks really good to me! --LivelyRatification (talk) 00:46, 19 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment - As user:LPfi noted on the article's talk page, the 'Drive' and 'Go' sections are supposed to be one section per the WV:Itinerary article template.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:39, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:09, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * - is there also anything else that I can work on? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:28, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I haven't really had a chance for a proper look at this yet. Also, I don't have much experience writing or using WV itineraries, have never visited Australia, and can't drive, so my opinion may not be worth much.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:35, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I see, also, by the way, I don't drive as well. And the problem with itineraries is that there's only four star itineraries, with none of them being a long and isolated "drive" (one of them is drive itself). Tbh, and no offense to anyone here, but I might actually be the one here who's had the most experience with itineraries, as I usually go at least two a month. I just go out a lot. I also don't think anyone has written as many proper itineraries as I have. (wp admin Evad37 has but mostly copied of enwiki) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:45, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No offence taken. If you have never actually driven the route yourself, how do you know the content is all accurate? Have you done the journey as a passenger? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:53, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, 4 times now and I've done the northerly section about 10 times now. I'm also applying for my drivers license soon but I'm probably not going to do that for another year. Expect more itineraries in a few years, although I am planning to move to Melbourne in a few years time. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:54, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * - I've also added some more information about the side tracks and alternate paths one can use. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 05:30, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment. Why does it have a "See also" section? There is nothing about that at Itinerary article template. Nurg (talk) 11:11, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * - ✅ merged. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:28, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Further comments - looking at it further, there are a few typos and weirdly-formulated sentences here and there (I'm changing them as I see them).
 * It strikes me that the towns and attractions en-route should probably have more descriptive information about them, especially those that don't have their own article or listing elsewhere. For instance: why is the zoo so famous and what can you see there?; what is Glenworth Valley like as a place - is it a town, village, a park, a literal valley? Basically every time there's a marker, but little or no information, I wonder what's lacking. From Cessnock Bypass onwards, there are no more markers or photos; why not?
 * Again from the perspective of a non-driver, as a practical guide I don't think you'd need any other source to follow the route (other than a paper map of course!); however, some of the tourist information is a bit sparse and could do with fleshing out.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:54, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Not yet. This article was only created in January, and there is no sign that any readers have successfully followed the directions in the article. I would prefer to wait a year or so to see if there are any edits from others who have followed the route.
 * Some detailed points:
 * The term "tourist drive" is not explained - this should be here or in Australian Tourist Drives - how well are these drives marked, are there many roadside interpretation boards etc. - ✅
 * The introduction should succinctly say how long the drive takes, both as a direct A-B route and stopping as recommended here. It could also say a little of where it is - something like "inland from Gosford, ??? km north of Sydney".
 * Get around should explain more about the type of car required, and if you can rent one locally.
 * The caption "Wisemans Ferry; once part of the Great North Road. Still is." is confusing. Is it part of the drive or not? - ✅
 * We are told 3 times that Glenworth Valley has outdoor laser tag, but no details - how much, are booking required etc. There are several other cases of duplication. - ✅
 * One of the things to see is "1813". I don't have a time machine! - ✅
 * A location should only have one marker - the full page map just shows duplicates as a cross. If there are two different things in the one place, move the markers 100m apart. - ✅
 * Is "Alternate Tourist Drive 33" a marked route? - ✅
 * We need some details on getting the key for Big Yango Loop Trail - how far in advance should you phone, and is the key pickup nearby? says "Vehicle access to this attraction is only available to visitors who are camping or staying at Big Yango House, Blue Gums campground or Mountain Arm campground. Gate codes will be provided in booking confirmations.", so this needs more details.
 * Other tracks looks to repeat tracks which are listed just above. - ✅
 * Assuming this isn't a daytrip, where are there good motels, B&Bs etc on the route?
 * A lot of good work has been done on this, but star is a high standard and so patience is required. AlasdairW (talk) 16:28, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * - sorry for annotating your message, but I'll use this as a checklist. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 23:54, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Almost Support I think it's nearly there, here are a few things I'd suggest fixing:
 * There are a few red links in the article
 * Not all of the listings have co-ordinates
 * Some sections are missing distance.
 * Grammar must be perfect - some capital letters and punctuation are missing
 * Per this, the logo at the top of the page might not be free to use.
 * I hope this helps! 82.3.185.12 18:11, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback User:82.3.185.12, The logo is only not free in Australia but it's too simple to be copyrighted. I will remove the redlinks, as these places are too small for it's own article.

I've also added a small map for each section of the drive, preventing the reader from having to scroll up. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 07:30, 10 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I've started to look through it. It needs some edits for style, and there's some text that I think should be offloaded to a smaller article about Australian tourist drives in general. I just made the following edits:


 * Original:


 * No other place of Australia has long interior tourist routes as well situated as this one - with either the views, the access, the wineries, the length and variety of environments or its historical significance. To travel from either Gosford or Hornsby along this route, even only in sections if restricted by time or budget, is an experience that has an impact on most travellers.


 * It's also where Glenworth Valley and the Hunter Valley Gardens are situated, making it one of the most used tourist drives in Australia along with the Grand Pacific Drive or Great Ocean Road (B100).


 * Edited version:


 * No other place in Australia has long interior tourist routes as well situated as this one - either the views, access, wineries, the length and variety of environments or their historical significance pale in comparison. To travel from either Gosford or Hornsby along this route, even only in sections if restricted by time or budget, is a memorable experience.


 * Glenworth Valley and the Hunter Valley Gardens are situated along this route, making it one of the most heavily used tourist drives in Australia along with the Grand Pacific Drive or Great Ocean Road (B100).


 * For an article to be a star, it must have really vivid and attractive writing that is not perfunctory or awkward in any way.


 * Here's the text that I think should be partly offloaded and edited:


 * For a route to be classified as a Tourist Drive or Tourist Route in New South Wales, each drive must go through nomination process, it could be promoted to a tourist drive. However, in the early 2010s, 12 of around 70 tourist drives in New South Wales were decommissioned - meaning they lose their status, however, Tourist Drive 33 was one of their first tourist drives declared in the 1960s - and it's one of the few Tourist Drives that are still standing today that were declared in the 1960s, better than it originally was with much more side trips and more places to see.


 * I think it's fine to say that this is one of only a few of the tourist drives that has been continuously so classified since the 60s, but the details of how routes are nominated and decommissioned don't strike me as really interesting to read about in the context of a single drive.


 * I will look through the article and do more copy editing, but it is not yet a star. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:50, 11 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks Ikan! SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:10, 11 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Sure thing! Be patient, though. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:13, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 06:31, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Would it be possible to add a climate chart into the climate section of the article? 82.3.185.12 18:54, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I just wanted to let you know that it has been more than two months since you nominated this article, do you believe that there are any outstanding issues? 82.3.185.12 19:42, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Climate charts are not added in itineraries. And plus, the temperature varies on where you are on. For example, when I slept at Wollombi in Summer, it was a low 15. But camping in Pokolbin in May hits a whopping 5˚ (and one day it went to -10˚) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 02:56, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Moved to slush pile. 82.3.185.12 19:17, 28 May 2021 (UTC)