Talk:Spies and secrets

Espionage history
I've recently stubbed this with one listing, but would appreciate a view on whether it's a viable travel topic?ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:22, 12 February 2018 (UTC)


 * If you can find enough additional listings, sure, why not? I think that's the only hard-and-fast metric on what constitutes a "viable travel topic". -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:31, 12 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Make sure to include spy museums like the one in Washington, D.C. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:00, 12 February 2018 (UTC)


 * That is literally the one and only listing :D I think there's an espionage section in the Imperial War Museum (London), and will check that out later. By the way, I like this idea for a travel topic. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:04, 12 February 2018 (UTC)


 * See w:Category:Espionage museums for some ideas, although it only has six US museums and one German one. I have added a listing for Berlin Friedrichstraße station, and I think that there are other cold war sights to add. AlasdairW (talk) 21:29, 12 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Noted... There's one really small military museum in the UK that's relevant. If you include crypto and signals inteligence there's a few other sites. Not sure if ex Radar count as espionage though... ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:00, 12 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Yeah, there's a Secret War section in the IWM, which covers espionage, special forces and other covert operations. If that museum groups them together, I don't see why this article couldn't collate other military intelligence-related attractions. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:25, 12 February 2018 (UTC)


 * The DDR Museum in Berlin deals with the Stasi among other aspects of life in East Germany. I think most any museum about East Germany would almost have to deal with the Stasi, because they were so pervasive in East Germany. Museums about Nazi or wartime Japanese terror would also deal with those regimes' secret police forces, as would any memorial to Stalinist terror, for example. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:07, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Article title
Is "Espionage history" the best title for this article? To me it sounds like kind of a dry Wikipedia-ish title. What about "Spies" or something like that? —Granger (talk · contribs) 21:48, 12 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Spies and secrets would work for me, as it would cover all kinds of revealed 'covert' military histroy and intelligence stuff, like cyrpto, radar and so on. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:37, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I like it. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:34, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Spy tourism would be a catchy title. /Yvwv (talk) 02:50, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Vienna
Vienna had lots of spy activity during the Cold War as Austria was non-aligned, and the seat of many international organizations. Also, espionage is said to be legal in Austria as long as it does not target the Republic of Austria. Where do we begin? /Yvwv (talk) 02:50, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * In order for any of it to be relevant, you need to either find a museum that contains information/artifacts related to the spying or identify specific locations where significant spy-related events took place. To say that lots of spying occurred is a fact that is likely true for every country but also without a connection to anything I can see or a specific place I can visit is merely trivia. So I guess if you're looking for a starting point, finding places that can be added as listings is what I'd suggest and then you can add details under the description about why it's significant or what spy-related objects/messages/etc it contains. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 10:23, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * There are videos on you-tube which I'd like to share but are blocked by the spam filter... Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:34, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Definition of secret police
I don't think I agree with this:

A secret police is a government security agency which oppresses opponents without regard to rule of law

Dictatorships often have laws codifying the oppression of their secret police's targets. I think a more neutral definition is something like this:

A secret police is a government security agency directed against internal opposition or other individuals and groups a more or less authoritarian government has decided to harass, arrest or worse.

One virtue of this definition is that it also embraces organizations like the FBI during certain periods. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:58, 15 January 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm happy with your proposed definition. The dog2 (talk) 17:19, 16 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Anyone else have an opinion about this? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:57, 16 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:12, 18 January 2020 (UTC)


 * I didn't see this, but I agree with you and TheDog2 about the definition. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 18:32, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

ECHELON listing
How is it travel-related? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:43, 4 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Many of their sites (list on Wikipedia) can be looked at from outside. A photo of one is in use as the banner for this page. For some people, these would be a tourist attraction. Pashley (talk) 08:44, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * There was already a paragraph about this. I just turned it into a listing, made it more coherent (I hope), & added the WP link for anyone who wants to find the sites. I briefly considered adding a listing for each site, but decided that was not needed. Pashley (talk) 08:50, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Since this is a travel guide, the entire point is to mention sites that can be visited (even if only from outside). Why on Earth would we want to farm out information about points of interest to an encyclopedia and make people leave the site to find out about them? And on the other hand, if we are not listing or at least mentioning them and indicating where they are, this is not properly a listing and in my experience and opinion should not be in a template. I have to ask you, though, what do you think would happen to someone snooping around outside this kind of facility? Is it safe for them to do so? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:55, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * For the safety, see the last paragraph of the lead section, which I added recently. Should that be in a caution box?
 * I think we need to mention ECHELON; it is one of the most important surveillance activities & has been for decades. Not sure exactly what to say, though.
 * Change it from listing to paragraph? Move it out of Understand into See? Add listings for sites? Just one for each country: Sugar Grove Station, RAF Menwith Hill, Australian Defence Satellite Communications Station, CFS Leitrim, Tangimoana Station? More, since WP lists dozens? Put site listings under existing headings or give ECHELON sites their own section? Pashley (talk) 13:18, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I'd say give it its own section. And yes, it should definitely be covered.Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:28, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I think that these are other operational sites should be covered in a separate section after the main list of museums and the like. The only threat to a traveller visting most spy museums is spending too much money in the gift shop, but there is the risk of a prison sentence (or worse) if the traveller mis-steps looking at an active site. AlasdairW (talk) 21:24, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
 * That makes sense to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:41, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes. I have moved it after the main list. Pashley (talk) 01:53, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks AlasdairW (talk) 13:24, 8 April 2022 (UTC)