Talk:Shimla

Reformatting

 * Thanks for adding the listings to the Shimla article. They are really useful - though remember that because of copyright restrictions we cannot copy the text from another source, but have to write everything in our own words. Also, I have made a few edits to the listings you made (take take a look). By the way, there is a discussion on the Delhi Talk page about how to set up the districts. Can you offer any help? I've been to Delhi many times, but I've never taken much notice about the district names, so I'm afraid I cannot help. Take it easy. (WT-en) WindHorse 07:47, 26 January 2007 (EST) Ps. Take a look at Colin's comments below, and try to do that as quickly as possible so that we can avoid possible copyright problems - ok?
 * Thanks for the edit to the monastery, but Nyingma is a school of Tibetan Buddhist, not a style of building - anyway, it was a good idea. (WT-en) WindHorse 08:02, 26 January 2007 (EST)
 * Hey, man, are you copying some of the edits on the Shimla article from a brochure??? As I said above, we have to write aaaaaaaaall our contributions in our words. What's your answer??? (WT-en) WindHorse 08:20, 26 January 2007 (EST)

''Here's my answer - I AM NOT USING ANY BROCHURE. I'm doing random googling to find out the websites and opening hours. And the reviews are from my own travel diary. Don't worry. P.S. I am consulting the web to find out opening hours, entry prices and items on the menu which is fine. All the reviews which I am using are being re-formatted which is within wikivoyage conventions. Upamanyuwikivoyage 09:19, 26 January 2007 (EST)''

OK, but many of the reviews still sound very brochure-like - for example...''Admire the Victorian Architecture, for The Mall retains much of its Raj-era charm....The central area of the mall, flanked by its half-timbered buildings, has always been, and remains its most fahionable area. Home to a profusion of restaurants''... Don't you agree? If you re-format, you have do more than just change a few words, it has to be re-written. Anyway, I'm just letting you know, because if anyone finds that you have copied something, then definitely you'll banned, and there is nothing I can do about it. Take it easy (WT-en) WindHorse 09:32, 26 January 2007 (EST)


 * Listen, here's the original text. I have re-formatted it. The Mall in Shimla is a classic example of Victorian Architecture. The half-timbered buildings in the central section of The Mall retain their Raj-era charm. This area is the poshest neighbourhood in the city, and houses a multitude of stylish restaurants, art galleries and shopping plazas. P.S. Just gloss over the spellings, I tend to use British spellings which apparently isn't the wikivoyage norm. I'm Done with See, Do, Eat & Drink I'll complete the Sleep Listings today evening, that is 12.30 GMT. And The Get Around is blank, Get In is too sparse. Upamanyuwikivoyage 22:18, 26 January 2007 (EST)

Thanks for reporting back. To be honest I'm not 100% sure of the rules concerning reformatting, but what you have written does seem far enough from the original for it not to contravene copyright laws, though I'm not so comfortable with it.... Let's see if anyone else can offer a more in depth appraisal (I'll add the dialogue to the Shimla Talk page). Anyway, the Shimla article does look much better. Thanks for your efforts. (WT-en) WindHorse 04:12, 27 January 2007 (EST)

I'd agree - the original and "rewritten" text seem far too similar to me. It's not enough to just change a few words in a sentence; if you find a description of a place that is four sentences long and you simply copy those four sentences and shuffle a few words it's still copying. My advice would be if you can't write clearly original work, using external sites as references only, then it's better to wait for others to make original contributions. In the mean time add your own contributions for places you are familiar with! -- Ryan 04:15, 27 January 2007 (EST)

Hey Upamanyuwikivoyage - Based on my own gut feelings and Ryan's input, I think that the Shimla text needs to be written - which I'll do. Then, in the future, please write any contributions in your words. Don't worry that the grammar is not 100% correct. It will get cleaned up at some point. OK? Anyway, keep going. You are doing fine, and it is good that you checking back with us about your contributions. In that way, we can avoid future problems. WindHorse 04:24, 27 January 2007 (EST)


 * Hey windhorse, you are not following the MoS for the See listings. The opening hours come immediatly after the address/phone no. After that, there is a full stop - you are using a dash instead. User:(WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage.

P.S. I wrote a comment on your talk page about the same thing, but had not signed in.
 * Yes, I often over use the dash. Thanks for the reminder (WT-en) WindHorse 08:11, 27 January 2007 (EST)


 * No problem. I'm now strictly following the wikivoyage MoS for listings, I wasn't following it in the Pune article. Shimla looks much better, do you think it deserves a guidecity status?? -- (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 22:54, 27 January 2007 (EST)


 * Did you write the last two edits yourself? I agree that they look good, but if they are copied and just reformatted then they will contravene copy right laws and will have to be deleted. When we create something, it should be done to benefit everyone, not just to satisfy ourselves. Imagine if you had spent a lot of time creating something and then found that someone had copied it without your permission; you'd probably feel cheated and unhappy, wouldn't you? Think of that when you add information to a Wikivoyage article, and don't only consider the quality of the article and your personal satisfaction. That is only half of the picture. Don't you agree? Anyway, I'll ask you again: Did you write the last two edits yourself or did you copy them and reformat. If they were copied and reformatted, then consider what I have explained above and please delete them and rewrite the information in your own words. Don't worry about the grammar. It will get corrected later. OK? Thanks. (WT-en) WindHorse 07:22, 29 January 2007 (EST)


 * The last two edits were written myself, based on what one of my friends there told me. That OK with you. User:(WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage

Here is the text which I copied from wikipedia. It was an accident, I didn't know that wikivoyage can't use GDFL text - Ryan told me about it later, so I copied and pasted it here temporarily. Please try to re-format it so that we can use it again. I deleted the text from the Shimla article.

''Sitting majestically above the searing plains, Shimla (Hindi: िशमला, Urdu: شملہ) was the summer capital of the erstwhile British Raj in India. Nestled in the middle Himalayas in northern India, Shimla is a hill station destination much beloved by honeymooners and other tourists, particularly in summer.

As of the 2001 India census, Shimla had a population of 142,161. The majority of the population consists of natives of Himachal Pradesh and a minority migrated from what is now Pakistan during the partition of India. Hindi, Punjabi and Pahadi (the local dialect of Hindi) are the main languages.'' (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 13:42, 30 January 2007 (EST)

And here's some more. ''Shimla district is located in the middle western ranges of the Himalayas. This region has a hilly terrain and has an uneven cover of evergreen pine forests. The Shimla city spreads over the hill at an average altitude of 2000 meters (roughly 6500 feet) above mean sea level.''

And the table is very useful, but I don't see why we should delete that, maybe change the text a little bit. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 13:45, 30 January 2007 (EST)

Images
I know that I lied about the image last time. I'm just going to publicly declare that all 3 images on this page are from wikipedia and are either licensed under CCSA or dual-licensed under GDFL & CCSA. If you still have your doubts, you can check the link in the image summary. I have also credited the photographer, so there has been no copyright violation this time. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 13:28, 30 January 2007 (EST)
 * Wow - you are smart. Are you sure you only 13? (WT-en) WindHorse 21:27, 30 January 2007 (EST) Ps. Image looks good.

Thanks. You don't believe that I'm 13, look in your talk page - I've given the email IDs of some of my classmates, just email them and ask.

(i'd forgotten to sign my name). (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 02:54, 31 January 2007 (EST)


 * Added two more images. Hope they look good. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 11:15, 31 January 2007 (EST)

Get Around
Hey wikivoyagers, please try and add a map to Get Around, it is simply too sparse. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 22:54, 27 January 2007 (EST)

Phone nos.
Shimla phone nos. can be very confusing. The main thing to remember is that the nos. at the local level have seven digits. However, if any one of you find a number with 6 digits, please change it to seven by adding a 2 in front. The six digit nos. were the old norm, but all nos. in the country were prefixed by a 2, 4 or 5 in 2005, as per Govt regulations. In Himachal Pradesh, only the prefix 2 is used.

eg. 91 177 456778 (old no.) +91 177 245-6778 (new, according to listings

Mobile numbers can be very confusing, but most have 10 digits, here's the correct format.

+91 xxxxx-xxxxx                   -- (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 23:05, 27 January 2007 (EST)

Anything left??
Is there anything that's missing from the article?? (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 03:20, 31 January 2007 (EST)


 * I seriously reckon this article has star potential. The main problem, as always (sigh!!!) is a MAP. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 1 February 2007 (EST)

A few things:


 * Listings should be templatized


 * Perhaps the mentions of things like the bookstores in the buy section should be made into proper listings with full contact details like address and phone#'s. I know Shimla is tiny, but people tend to want these things when we vote for Star status.


 * Official websites should only be listed once, in the article intro


 * Contact details for the Gaiety Theatre, the zoo and ice skating rink(s), if they exist. I know one of them is down near Hotel White and the bus stand, are there others?

That's what I can think of at the moment, heading to bed! Good work so far on this article, you're really making it look great! (WT-en) - Cacahuate 04:35, 19 February 2007 (EST)


 * Hey Cacahuate, I'll address your queries one-by-one.


 * 1) Listings should be templatized - I'm afraid I don't quite understand you. Do you mean they should follow the MoS?? Well, they do!! I have strictly followed Project:Listings.
 * 2) Perhaps the mentions of things like the bookstores in the buy section should be made into proper listings with full contact details like address and phone#'s. I know Shimla is tiny, but people tend to want these things when we vote for Star status. - I have mentioned the address of both the places. For antiques and rare books, visit Maria Bros. in the central section of the Mall, close to Baljees. If you are looking for fiction or novels, Minerva Book House at Hotel Minerva (tel:91 177 225-2043) has a good collection. Maria Bros does not have a phone, I have been there twice and have never spotted one. Google does not show any results either. I have already included the phone# of Minerva Book House. I don't want to make it into a proper listing because I don't have the opening hours of either place.
 * 3) Official websites should only be listed once, in the article intro - sure, I'll change it as soon as I can. However, can't the tourist sites come in the Understand#Tourist Info section??
 * 4) Contact details for the Gaiety Theatre, the zoo and ice skating rink(s), if they exist. I know one of them is down near Hotel White and the bus stand, are there others? - am trying to find phone nos. Gaiety theatre has no contact details other than the address, The Mall.


 * 1. I mean using the new listings tags that are starting to be implemented... when you're editing a page, scroll down to the box below the "Save page" button... there's various ones for attractions, restaurants, etc... they look like:
 * * 
 * 2. That's fine for now, but when it's going through the star nomination process it will have to be made into a proper listing... so the lack of information can either be fixed now, or become a stumbling block for the article then...
 * 3. I would say unless there's a specific reason to list them again there, we should just leave it at being listed once, in the intro... an example of where I just listed one again later in an article would be at Pakistan, where I linked directly to the authorized tour agencies.
 * 4. No problem, I understand that many places might not have phones, etc, but if they do we should get the info... I only point it out since these are the kinds of things people will bring up when it gets legitimately nominated for star status...


 * Hope that helps! (WT-en) - Cacahuate 20:22, 19 February 2007 (EST)


 * First of all, thanks for all your inputs. Secondly, I just wanted to inform you that my guidebook says for more info, contact the Forest Officer of The Municipal Corporation of Shimla. His phone no. is 265-2911. This is confirmed via the guidebook as well as google. I suppose it can be included, right?? I'm adding it for the time being. :) (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 08:07, 20 February 2007 (EST)

Grumble grumble
So, I just read the article with a view of visiting Shimla, and the following questions remain unanswered: Don't answer here -- edit the article! (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:40, 22 February 2007 (EST)
 * How long does the "toy train" from Kalka take, how often does it run, what is it like, and is there a real name for it?
 * Who operates the flights to Junnabhurti?
 * Lower Bazaar mentions "Shimla speciality dishes". What are they?
 * Rs 8000 is midrange!?!? In India anything above US$100 (RS. 4000) is most definitely Splurge territory, and this change I've done myself.

(moved from User_talk:Jpatokal)

Jani, is Rs 1000 and below budget in India?? Ever been to Bombay or Pune?? Check out Mumbai/Western Suburbs (written by Ravikiran). Splurge essentially means 5 star and whether you like it or not, 5 stars in India are quite expensive and stuff below Rs 8000 will fall under the midrange category. Midrange options in India are often 10-20 times as much as a hostel's rates, but that's simply because rates in India are extreme. Even a Calcuttan (Kolkata is one of the cheapest cities in the country) will laugh at someone placing a Rs3000 hotel in the splurge category. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 05:01, 23 February 2007 (EST)

I'm trying to address your grumble-grumbles on Shimla. Jagson operates the flights from Chandigarh and Indira Gandhi International. The train takes 5 - 6 hours, Windhorse has added the schedule of trains from Kalka to Shimla. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 05:01, 23 February 2007 (EST)


 * That pricerangebox is for Shimla, not all India. In the vast majority of the country, you can get a guesthouse room for under Rs.300 and a mid-range hotel (one/two stars) for Rs.1000-2000.  Having spent the past 6 months in Gurgaon, and the past two hours searching for a halfway decent hotel room under an hour's commute from NOIDA, I'm painfully aware that prices in the metros are crazy in the upper price bracket -- but you can still get a dorm bed in Paharganj for Rs.50.


 * Hey,Mr. Jani, I didn't mean to sound rude or anything. If I did, I just want to point out that no offence was meant okay. BTW, Shimla has a lot of mid-range accomodation(Rs 2500-3000) and most of it is concentrated on Cart Road and The Mall(especially the Eastern bit).

P.S. Hey, please don't refer to me as my little spoiled boy - I repeat, I'm sorry, I agree I crossed the limits of decency. I'm copying this onto your talk page. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 08:29, 23 February 2007 (EST)


 * My comment removed, it was uncalled for &mdash; sorry. (Although I still haven't forgiven you over that picture incident.) (WT-en) Jpatokal 12:04, 23 February 2007 (EST)
 * That's okay, I agree that the pic incident was well....extremely wrong of me. It's just that I really got mad at Sapphire when he used swear words on my talk page (well, swear words by Indian standards) and I let out my anger on you. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 05:08, 24 February 2007 (EST)


 * If it really is the case that Shimla has no mid-range accommodation &mdash; which I doubt, as TripAdvisor shows lots in the ~$50 range -- then you should say so and leave the section empty, not pretend that US$200/night is "mid-range". (WT-en) Jpatokal 05:57, 23 February 2007 (EST)


 * Quite right. While checking for a place to stay in the Andamans, I found that the absolutely top of the line Fortune resort charged something like 5K and and above 1K was mid-range. &mdash; (WT-en) Ravikiran 06:04, 23 February 2007 (EST)


 * That's absolutely true. 5,000/6,000rs + in Shimla and other places (except Bangalore, which is especially expensive) can get a room in a standard five star. 1,000 - 2,000rs + is the going rate for most one or two star places, and 2,500rs + can easily get a room in a three star hotel. Shimla has a lot of mid range accommodation (mostly in the smaller roads leading from the Mall). I just cannot remember the names. (WT-en) WindHorse 07:40, 23 February 2007 (EST)


 * Ok guys, but I'm not comfortable with 4000, that is real cheap for a splurge hotel, it's about 95 US dollars. I'm making it 6000. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 04:55, 28 February 2007 (EST)

Jpatokal, just 1 doubt, you had said that (I quote) In India anything above US$100 (RS. 4000) is most definitely Splurge territory. Well, why did you say that 4000+ = splurge applies for the whole country, in places like Bombay only 9000+ is splurge. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 04:55, 28 February 2007 (EST)
 * Upamanyu, what is the point of cross examining people like this? This is not a law court. It is quite clear that Jani meant most of India when he said "India". If it wasn't clear the first time, it should have been clear from his subsequent comment where he accepted that Mumbai and Delhi were exceptions. &mdash; (WT-en) Ravikiran 07:27, 28 February 2007 (EST)
 * OK, ravi, I'll stop it. Sorry Jani, end of matter ok. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 04:28, 1 March 2007 (EST)

Pronunciation and name
Shimla is pronounced as [ʃɪmla] and not [ʃɪml]

First line should look something like this: (not exactly like this, as this contains inline Wikipedia links)

Shimla (pronunciation [ʃɪmla]) (Hindi: िशमला)

The Hindi Article too needs to be updated, which has been titled िशमल instead of िशमला.

(Actually, I am surprised to see this error. People from Shimla (India?) not editing? No one looks up Wikipedia? :-) )

122.162.69.147 20:13, 19 July 2007 (EDT)
 * Thanks for the information. I've changed the Hindi name accordingly. However, Wikivoyage does not use the international phonetic alphabet as it is not so common, and many people are unfamiliar with the symbols. Anyway, in the future if you find information that is out of date, please feel free to Plunge forward and correct it. Before doing so, however, I recommend that you briefly review some of our policies: Project:Manual of style. Thanks. If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask me or any of the other regular contributors. (WT-en) WindHorse 23:24, 19 July 2007 (EDT)


 * And please feel free to help out over on the Hindi version... it's still very new, and yes, I've been doing a lot of the editing, and my Hindi is pretty tragic! – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 00:11, 20 July 2007 (EDT)


 * Thanks for making the changes. I shall go through the policies before making edits directly. Also, the Hindi article needs to be moved: to  and then instructions about changing old links here need to be followed. But I can't find a link to "Move a page" in the English Wikivoyage (as mentioned in Project:How_to_rename_a_page), nor an equivalent link in the Hindi one. 122.162.69.147 16:43, 21 July 2007 (EDT)


 * The 'move' tab is on the top a page (article, discussion, edit+, history, move, watch).--(WT-en) Wandering 16:56, 21 July 2007 (EDT)


 * Indeed... however the problem is that anonymous users can't move pages, which is why you don't see the "move" tab... have you considered creating a user account? I've moved the Hindi article, thanks for pointing that out! – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 18:07, 21 July 2007 (EDT)