Talk:San Francisco/Chinatown-North Beach

Guide Article
Ok, so I just changed the status of this article to "guide" as I feel it probably just meets the criteria. If anyone disagrees with this, please feel free to change it back. Thanks (WT-en) Asterix 14:36, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Imagery
Hi, Id like to add some photos to this article but don't know how. I saw three images at wikicommons:

Am I ok to use these from a copyright point of view?? And is there a procedure somewhere that describes the process of adding the images to an article? Right now I don't know how to do it. Thanks (WT-en) Asterix 15:17, 16 July 2008 (EDT)


 * From a copyright point of view, you're allowed to use the first two images, but not the third. The third uses the GNU license (they always have that bull in the copyright tag) which from what I understand is incompatible with our license. For the first two you want to make sure to follow the terms of the license, which for Creative Commons Attribution ShareAlike 2.5 means that you're free to use it, as long as you attribute it and upload it under that same license.


 * As for actually adding the images to Wikivoyage, you have to upload all photos (not maps, but all photos) to Wikivoyage Shared. Go ahead and get an account there and follow the instructions on uploading files, then go to Project:How to add an image to find out how to actually add it to the Wikivoyage article. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 17:49, 16 July 2008 (EDT)


 * Thanks for that, I've uploaded the first two images now. As it was my first time, I'd appreciate it though if someone could check that I credited the work properly...don't want to upset some photog somewhere!  My account on WT Shared is here  Thanks (WT-en) Asterix 14:35, 17 July 2008 (EDT)


 * You did pretty good. A couple things you missed (which I added) was the copyright tag (you can add it when uploading files by selecting it from the pull-down menu) and you want to make sure you enter in the location (in this case, "San Francisco"), so that it'll come up on the list of San Francisco images on WT Shared. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 17:04, 17 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Merci beaucoup (WT-en) Asterix 17:37, 17 July 2008 (EDT)

Map
Hi, sorry to bother agian, but there is one more thing I think this article needs, and thats to update the map. How exactly do I go about doing this one...anyone? Thanks (WT-en) Asterix 14:35, 17 July 2008 (EDT)


 * Basically, all maps are required to have the original SVG file used to make the map uploaded to WT and linked from the actual map image page. To update the map, you would download the SVG file to your hard rive, then use some image program (we prefer Inkscape) to update the map. This is where it all gets pretty complicated and where it's more help to point to Project:How to draw a map. However, if you like I can update it myself and have it done pretty quickly (like within a few hours), since I already have the original SVG file (after all, I made that map). :) (WT-en) PerryPlanet 17:08, 17 July 2008 (EDT)


 * Yes that would be great...thanks! As volunteers, I'm not exactly sure what the etiquette is when it comes to asking someone else to help with a specific task. I assumed you weren't interested in doing it after I did not get a response here, but perhaps you missed that. But if you want to do it...please, go for it! :)Thanks for the help  (WT-en) Asterix 17:35, 17 July 2008 (EDT)


 * Whoops, yeah, I did miss that. Sorry. Anywho, I am currently updating the map as we speak. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 18:06, 17 July 2008 (EDT)

Oyster fest
This sounds like the best thing in the world (festival devoted to Irish stouts & oysters?!), but what do you get for the $20 dollar ticket? Do you still have to pay for your oysters & beer once inside? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:43, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

San Francisco/Chinatown-North Beach
Ok, so here is a district article from SF that many contributors worked on including; User:(WT-en) Vkw, User:(WT-en) PerryPlanet, User:(WT-en) OliverBuchino, User:(WT-en) Wrh2, as well as some really great stuff form some anon IPs. Is it a star? (WT-en) Asterix 13:20, 18 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Support. It's a really well done guide. There are still a few listings in the Buy and Drink sections which are lacking hours, and we'll need those to make the article perfect, but that shouldn't be too hard to get. As far as I can tell, this guide has extensive listings (as it should, considering where we're talking about!), good descriptions, and a lot of great information. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 22:15, 19 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Am I seriously the only person who's commented on this? Surely someone else has something to say? At least a word of "Support"? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 20:05, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Hey, we've got 14 days right? I haven't forgotten&mdash;just haven't had time to give it a good look yet ;) --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:37, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

The default/most common order is alphabetical, and that's what I'd recommend. I'm pretty sure the only other acceptable order is geographical, like the sights in San Francisco/Fisherman's Wharf, although that is usually not possible. That's the only objection I have large enough to hold up star status. But yeah, the article is fantastic (and huge), and I've got a hunch this is where I'll head first next time I'm in San Francisco. Just reading this made me so hungry I had to drive over to Chicago's Chinatown for food before making my edits.
 * One objection &mdash; listings are not in order!


 * Actually, this was deliberate, and I spent a bit of time making sure the listings roughly ran from a south (chinatown) to north (north Beach) direction. I also listed the reason why in the article under "Get Around"...There are many more parks, public seating, and cafes with curbside tables in North Beach, so why not see Chinatown first. That way, by the time you'd made it through its bustling streets you'll be ready for a coffee and a sit down in North Beach.  So in actuality it's in geographical order.  Is this ok? (WT-en) Asterix 13:16, 31 July 2008 (EDT)


 * Ah, ok, so long as there is an order to it, I'll support. I do recommend adding a quick note in italics (probably at the top of the "see" section), explaining that the listings are in rough order from south to north. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:43, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Other less crucial things:

1) The article currently uses multiple formats to convey when a listing is closed for a specific day of the week (e.g., "closed on Mondays"). I'd recommend leaving such info out completely, since it should be obvious that any day not mentioned could then be assumed closed. (E.g., T-Th 5AM-10PM, F-Sa 5AM-midnight, Su 10AM-10PM.) But if you prefer to leave those references to closed days, that should be done in a standard fashion throughout the article.
 * OK, easy fix (WT-en) Asterix 13:16, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

2)Did Kerouac stay here? With his friend or in a flophouse? If so, it would be great to call out the building or at least the street where he was living. On that note, perhaps it would be worth doing to list at least one of the SRO flophouses under "sleep," since someone visiting after reading On the Road might be curious to spend a week in one.
 * As regards Kerouac - Not sure he stayed in an SRO in which case I wonder is it worth adding one? I know that he lived at 29 Russell st...but that's actually in Nob Hill area.  I did add the places where he drank (Trieste + Vesuvios) and hungout (Kerouac Alley + City Lights)..not sure where else stayed and specifically at an SRO??...I'll have to look this one up.  I thought I had one SRO in here but now I see it was in Civic Center.   Perhaps it is worth adding one as you say.(WT-en) Asterix 13:16, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Great, given how expensive San Francisco can be, I'd gladly slum it in a transient hotel for $160/week in a cool neighborhood. I've added it to the map. Also, a link to Kerouac's place in Nob Hill might be good for a "get out" section. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:43, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

3) The article's dashes are not standardized, using both hyphens surrounded by spaces and double hyphens to indicate breaks in thought. In my opinion, only mdashes (&mdash;) should ever be used for this purpose, whether you surround them with spaces ( &mdash; ) or not. If you'd like me to, I'm happy to quickly replace all the article's "breaks in thought" dash muddling with mdashes, and can do so in a jiffy&mdash;let me know. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 18:51, 30 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Please - knock yourself out. I'm happy to accept the help. To be honest it took so long writing this article that I missed some of the smaller things.  Thanks for the critique. (WT-en) Asterix 13:16, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Done. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:43, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Photo
Swept in from the pub:

...copied from User talk:(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald

''Thanks for your help again at San Francisco/Chinatown-North Beach. I like the following photo a lot, and would like to add it (it's the musical barber under the "Do" section)..however, I read that photos of people were a no-no. Given that he's the real attraction here, would this rule apply here too in your opinion? Thanks (WT-en) Asterix 17:51, 1 August 2008 (EDT)''

Hi...I was hoping that someone could help me with the above? (WT-en) Asterix 15:33, 4 August 2008 (EDT)


 * Hey sorry about that! I tend to forget things when I don't respond right away... That's definitely a cool photo (and a cool listing), but I'm pretty sure that would run afoul of our Image policy policy, since he is identifiable & clearly the subject of the photo. Unless, that is, you got him to sign a model release. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 22:37, 4 August 2008 (EDT)


 * Thx Peter &mdash; I'll leave it for now; I might try and get that release later though if I have the time... (WT-en) Asterix 12:49, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

Split This Into 2 Neighborhoods!
I have to object to grouping these two neighborhoods together. It's even worse than the Mission-Bernal or the Noe-Castro groupings, which are already pretty bad. As the article says, these two neighborhoods could not be more different! Regardless of the supervisor district maps (I guess this is district 3?), this grouping would make no sense to a traveler (or a local). —The preceding comment was added by User:Moretravel (talk • contribs)


 * They are very different, certainly, but as a traveler I found it pretty easy to wander out of one and find myself in the other (mainly because of how the streets link up). There's even the Jack Kerouac Alley, the symbolic and literal connection between the two! That said, I'm not saying it couldn't be done, since both neighborhoods have enough content to stand on their own, but it would take a lot of work for what I personally see as relatively little benefit. PerryPlanet (talk) 15:28, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Was there a guiding principle for creating the neighborhoods? I think the test of whether you can walk between them is probably insufficient. There are no walls between the neighborhoods, so all of San Francisco would be in one district by that test! Moretravel (talk) 16:58, 18 January 2013 (UTC)


 * All I mean is that it's hard to clearly point out where one starts and the other ends. There's no prominent street separating the two, there's no hill, the architecture doesn't rapidly change (as an example of this, the boundary between North Beach and the Financial District is a pretty clear one, because if you're walking into the Financial District you're immediately surrounded by highrises), etc. PerryPlanet (talk) 17:35, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Not sure I agree the architecture doesn't change. And when you get to Chinatown, the signage is in Chinese! And everyone except the tourists is Asian. It's a pretty clear contrast, even superficially. Maybe I'll get around to splitting them up... Moretravel (talk) 17:40, 18 January 2013 (UTC)


 * If you really want to split it up, I have no objection to that, but just understand the level of work it will involve. You have to create the articles, carefully sift through the content to split it up, and - and this is where the bulk of the work will come in - change the maps. If you're up for that, go for it, but commit to it. A lot of love went into making this article. Maybe create a pair of draft articles, so you can complete the transition on your own time without affecting the content that is already up (until you're ready for the split to go into effect)? PerryPlanet (talk) 17:50, 18 January 2013 (UTC)


 * How do you create the maps? Moretravel (talk) 19:41, 18 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Details can be found here: How to draw a map. PerryPlanet (talk) 19:48, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Ejecting the Embarcadero
So I plunged forward and did something I've been meaning to do for a while, which is move the listings along the Embarcadero to Fisherman's Wharf. With the growing number of attractions there (particularly the recent arrival of the Exploratorium) it seemed like a better fit. They're pretty removed from North Beach given the presence of Telegraph Hill, and visitors to the Embarcadero are naturally more likely to be walking along the waterfront or taking the streetcar up to the Wharf than crossing over to the Chinatown/North Beach area. PerryPlanet (talk) 19:36, 30 March 2015 (UTC)