Talk:Phoenix

Very, very nice job! Lots of good work on this page. If this keeps it up, I think it should be featured. --(WT-en) Evan 02:47, 15 Mar 2004 (EST)

Hierachy
Should Phoenix follow the Huge City template and have sub pages for all the cities in the metropolitan area? -- (WT-en) Huttite 19:59, 4 Jan 2005 (EST)


 * Yes (unsigned)


 * I believe the way it is currently broken up is workable, grouping some of the smaller, less attraction-heavy communities into broader district articles like North Phoenix, containing Deer Valley, Desert View, North Mountain, North Gateway, and New Village. If each of those communities had their own article, they would all be pretty empty I imagine. (WT-en) Texugo 01:50, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

Districts
Cool, nice work on the map of districts... are User:24.56.51.168 and User:7077 the same person? Either way can you/you guys get the actual districts articles to then match the map, right now there's more district articles than what is shown on the map – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 03:49, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

Looking at the orphaned pages (ones with no links) list, I find: Phoenix/Arcadia, Phoenix/Biltmore, Phoenix/Laveen, Phoenix/Maryvale and Phoenix/Southwest Phoenix. Could someone who knows the area please either create links to them and fill them out a bit or prpose them for deletion. (WT-en) Pashley 01:00, 12 February 2009 (EST)

Horrible
Phoenix is extremely cohesive and interconnected. You cannot separate it into its component districts like it has been here. All of the districts should be represented in the main article for Phoenix, then they should each have their own specialized page.

I think that the Greater Phoenix page is a much more suitable place for this purpose, and I think that all data concerning the entirey of the Metropolitan area should be put in that article, as opposed to this one. —The preceding comment was added by 68.2.121.168 (talk • contribs), 22:56, 20 January 2013

Shuttles from Phoenix Airport to other parts of Arizona
Could someone please explain why such shuttles are at all relevant to this article? I would suggest for such a shuttle to be listed in cities to where it goes (or if that's felt improper because there are so many of them, then perhaps once, at the state level), not here, as surely, no-one will travel from Phoenix to Phoenix Airport, just in order to take a shuttle to some other part of the state, right? Or is this an exceptional case, and I'm wrong? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:45, 8 November 2015 (UTC)


 * User:Anyone150, any input on this? Anyone else? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:58, 8 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Ikan Kekek There's always an option for someone who wants to travel from Phoenix to somewhere else. Go to the airport arrivals zone and take the shuttle like they would going to a bus station. Because the area is so spread out and the bus stops/stations are in different places the airport can be the closer than the other places. In addition others arriving by plane with with the intent of going elsewhere without a car will appreciate knowing they can hop on a shuttle or bus AT the airport and be on their way which saves them time and extra expense for a taxi. —The preceding comment was added by Anyone150 (talk • contribs)


 * Thanks for replying. First, a procedural thing: We sign our posts on talk pages with 4 tildes (~) in a row at the end of the post.


 * Now, for your second point first: I don't think anyone would come here just because they're arriving by plane in Phoenix Airport and want to check on transportation from Phoenix Airport to a distant city. I could be wrong, but I think that, instead, that information would be best placed in the article for the distant city, if we want them to read it.


 * For your first point, a question: Why would anyone go from, say, Phoenix to the airport and then take a shuttle to Tucson from the airport, instead of taking transportation directly from Phoenix to Tucson? Is it because, unusually for cities nowadays, the airport is actually in Downtown Phoenix? If so, perhaps this is a special case and for that reason, the information about the shuttles should remain in this article. But is there an advantage in price or comfort that would cause anyone to logically make this choice? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:31, 8 November 2015 (UTC)


 * "The airport is actually in Downtown Phoenix? If so, perhaps this is a special case and for that reason, the information about the shuttles should remain in this article." Almost.  The airport is basically between downtown Phoenix and Tempe, located 5mi/8km east of the downtown core (Central Ave & Van Buren).  On the map it's practically next to downtown. Furthermore, Phoenix does not have a strong downtown life, everything's all spread out in one giant sprawl so they can be coming from any direction and the airport could be closer to where they came from.  In fact, the Greyhound terminal is also next to the airport in this case rather then in downtown. As it is there's no central bus terminal so each bus company have a stop or terminal in different areas far apart from each other so it is either by local bus or taxi to complete the rest of the journey.  "But is there an advantage in price or comfort that would cause anyone to logically make this choice?"  If the shuttle company offers door to door service in Tucson it could be quicker to have the shuttle deliver the traveler to that particular address rather than be dropped off at a different location and then having to arrange a ride or take a taxi or bus from where they're dropped off to complete the journey. If nothing else that's one more choice to have. "I don't think anyone would come here just because they're arriving by plane in Phoenix Airport and want to check on transportation from Phoenix Airport to a distant city."  They could be researching on the Phoenix article, knowing they have to arrive into Phoenix, to get to Sedona or the Grand Canyon, for example so it's there for them. Sure include that information in the other articles too.  Phoenix Sky Harbor is the major airport for much of Arizona and outside the Phoenix & Tucson metropolitan area everything is desolate or small town. —The preceding comment was added by Anyone150 (talk • contribs)


 * Thanks for explaining. I'm convinced. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:43, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Consolidation?
While I recognize that a lot of work likely went into creating the current districts layout, and I readily admit that I am not at all familiar with Phoenix, looking through this guide I fear we may have overextended ourselves by district-fying this city. While Phoenix is undoubtedly a massive city population-wise, there simply doesn't seem to be enough travel content on Wikivoyage to necessitate breaking it up into separate district pages, let alone seven of them.

Going through the individual district pages, I counted a combined total of 17 See listings, 16 Do listings, 5 Buy listings, 32 Eat listings, 18 Drink listings, and 28 Sleep listings, with many of these still listed in the main Phoenix page. And that's without scanning them for any closed establishments. These numbers seem comparable (and in some cases are even fewer) to those of large-but-not-massive American West city articles such as Denver, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, and even much smaller Tucson, which seem to get along just fine without being districtified. And while listings alone don't determine the length of a page, only the Downtown Phoenix article has any prose describing the district itself, independent of specific transportation info or listings that can be easily moved.

In light of this, I would like to propose that we change the Phoenix page from a huge city template back to a big city template and consolidate the information on all seven district articles here, merging and redirecting them back to Phoenix. It's been nearly eight years since the current district layout was created, and in all that time it doesn't seem to have borne fruit. PerryPlanet (talk) 01:21, 17 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I just looked through this article for the first time, and thought exactly the same thing as you, PerryPlanet, before coming across your proposal. It's a pity there hasn't been anybody else involved. I'll make a request for comments, and see what comes of it. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:33, 16 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Ah, I see you've already done it. What can we do to take this further? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:34, 16 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Heh, nice to see someone finally acknowledge this after two months of silence. Then again, long waits for comments are hardly uncommon on Wikivoyage. Still, I suppose it couldn't hurt to post a note on the travellers' pub if we want to try to jump start this conversation. PerryPlanet (talk) 15:45, 16 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Hi, sorry for the long wait for a reply; I forgot to add this page to my watchlist! If you raise it at the pub and manage to start a discussion here, I'll continue to give input. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:54, 25 March 2016 (UTC)


 * I think this is not a bad idea (listings can be grouped by price or [sub]type for ease of reference), but I don't know the first thing about Phoenix. In general the district structures of our cities may have to be improved in many cases... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:01, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Well, it's been over three months now with no objections voiced, and I'd like to make some progress on this. Unfortunately, none of the people seriously involved in the original districtfying seem to still be around, so there don't seem to be any specific parties to solicit interest from on this. I think I'll give this another week or so before moving forward with my proposal, barring any objections. PerryPlanet (talk) 02:51, 27 April 2016 (UTC)


 * It wouldn't be at all unreasonable if you wanted to just start now instead of waiting the week. People have had plenty of chance to contribute to the discussion, and the two of us who have are in consensus with your proposals. Best, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:37, 27 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Eh, it's not like there's any rush. And I like to be as accommodating as I can reasonably be, especially for such a big change like this. PerryPlanet (talk) 13:16, 27 April 2016 (UTC)


 * You should definitely be getting an award for outstanding patience =) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:48, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Revisiting districts
So given this revelation as to what this article supposedly lacks in comparison to the one on that other site and the size both in terms of inhabitants and sheer sprawl, maybe we should consider dividing Phoenix into districts but this time with a clean slate approach? Or would this be a lot of effort for little gain? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:27, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I think what our Phoenix guide needs right now is more content in general, rather than a different way of splitting it up. The whole reason why we just went through the merger was because the district articles were pretty paltry on content.
 * What I think would help more would be if the content of the Greater Phoenix suburbs were better integrated with our Phoenix content, because the suburbs of Scottsdale, Tempe, and Glendale all have some pretty major attractions. This could be as simple as adding more pointers to those guides, or we could even go full Los Angeles and merge the "main city" and "metro area" guides to make the suburban ones more prominent. Though it'd be nice if we had some local insight on this. PerryPlanet (talk) 01:37, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Apologies for joining this conversation rather late. I went to university in Tempe many moons ago, and once knew that area (especially around the university) rather well. The city of Phoenix not so well, though, so I can't really offer an informed opinion on districting this specific article. I do however think it would be a mistake to merge all of the suburban articles into a general metro area article, because several of them do have distinct identities and characters as well as some history, especially Scottsdale, Tempe, Mesa, Chandler, and Apache Junction. The others are probably of less interest for the traveler. –StellarD (talk) 09:51, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Well if I understand the situation with LA correctly, the article as a whole treats the county while the districts are based on logical subdivisions, be they aligned with political subdivisions or not. Which in the case of Phoenix might mean that Tempe might become a "district" of "Greater Phoenix" just like Downtown Phoenix (if such a thing exists) but on the other hand smaller entitities could be merged into one "district" of "Greater Phoenix" if that benefits our readers Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:47, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
 * To be fair, the L.A. approach only makes sense if the suburbs and the dominant city share a common identity. In the case of L.A. you had technically separate municipalities like Malibu, Santa Monica and Beverly Hills that definitely have distinct identities but are still commonly thought of as part of L.A., so that was a case where bringing all of those together under the same framework made sense from a traveler's perspective. I honestly don't know if the same is true of Phoenix. PerryPlanet (talk) 18:27, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
 * The relationship of Tempe and Mesa with Phoenix is actually quite similar to that of Malibu and Santa Monica with Los Angeles, and the comparison does make sense. However I find the districting of the L.A. article rather confusing. Los Angeles is classified as a city, which contains both district articles and region articles, and the region articles are further subdivided into yet more cities. I am not convinced that approach would work for Phoenix. I might suggest perhaps that the region of Greater Phoenix contain one city (Phoenix) and several bottom level regions, e.g. Metro Phoenix North etc., which would contain the city articles of Scottsdale, Glendale, etc.
 * Also, for me the name 'Greater Phoenix' seems rather contrived. I've always known of the area as the Phoenix Metropolitan Area, or Metro Phoenix for short. As an aside I should also add that I disagree with Wikipedia's map of Metro Phoenix which includes both Maricopa and Pinal Counties, when really I think only the eastern portion of Maricopa County (surrounding Phoenix) should be included. –StellarD (talk) 21:25, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
 * That's not Wikipedia's fault; the Phoenix Metropolitan Area is defined by the Census Bureau, and such Areas always follow county lines. Powers (talk) 20:47, 12 October 2016 (UTC)