Talk:Philippines/Archive 2019

Get in: Long-term foreign resident registration and customs restrictions
Our present "Get In" section does not provide anything about alien resident registration for foreign travellers staying for the long term in the country and restrictions on some items when going through customs checks. Do anyone know anything about it? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 23:25, 22 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Retiring abroad & Retiring abroad/Table of course mention the Philippines & give a link for the retirement visa; I believe that needs US$800/month paid directly into a Philippine bank and a reserve of $10,000 sitting in the bank. Quite a few men I know have long-term visas because they have married Filipinas. Probably some women too. I'm not sure of details, but these are said to be cheaper than either tourist or retirement visas.
 * I've been told there is some sort of special visa for American veterans, but do not have details. There are a lot of vets here, many of whom were posted at Subic (Navy) or Clark (Air Force) during the Vietnam War; they complain that both places have gone downhill since then. The Veterans Administration has a connection to a hospital in Manila; I'm not sure if they run it or have just approved a local hospital for their payments, but vets can get free treatment there. Many go to the military hospital in Guam instead, or even back to the US. Pashley (talk) 02:50, 23 January 2019 (UTC)


 * And what about foreign resident identification alongside long-term visas, the thing I'm asking, so we can add it to the existing text? Customs restrictions, like of food, duty-free alcohol and tobacco, medicines, etc. that you can bring to the Philippines? --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 04:11, 23 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Customs restrictions I do not know. Tobacco is far cheaper here than anywhere I've come from so i usually arrive with few or no cigarettes, I've never brought booze & never medicines that I thought might be a problem. I've never been asked or searched either.
 * There's an ACR (Alien Certificate of Registration) card you have to get if you stay more than two months. Requires fingerprints, photograph & some sort of police check. For a tourist visa, no clearance from cops back home, just wherever you are staying; that might be different for other visas. For a tourist visa, 4000 or so a year, cheaper for other visas. Some places will give a senior's discount based on an ACR card, others only with a Seniors' ID that you can get only if you become a permanent resident. Pashley (talk) 05:00, 23 January 2019 (UTC)


 * To add up to those about foreign resident registration, there's also other paperwork on the barangay level, including resident registration and clearance.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 05:30, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Rewrite the last two paragraphs of our introductory section
I think we of rewriting the last two paragraphs of our introduction, as it need to reflect the rebounding tourism industry. 2018 tourism stats indicate a rise in foreign tourist arrivals (higher than 2017 stats), and there are even additional developments, including a future cruise ship service to the country from nearby Southeast Asian countries.


 * "The Philippines is possibly the most underrated destination in Southeast Asia. It receives less than 1/5th of the number of visitors to Thailand, despite having a population 40% bigger. While part of it is due to the country being an archipelago, the Philippines receives relatively few visitors from outside Southeast Asia as well. This is rather surprising given the country's fantastic beaches and landscapes, its vibrant and diverse culture, the ease of using English to communicate with the locals, the affordability of food and accommodation, the excellent infrastructure in many places, and finally, the cheerfulness and friendliness of people; perhaps the easiest way to recognise a Filipino abroad is to see who has the broadest smile.


 * One possible explanation is the exaggeration, often by media, Western governments and sometimes by overseas Filipinos, of problems such as urban violence and activities of militant groups. While these problems certainly exist, they are confined to certain areas and can be avoided with basic planning and precautions."

Any ideas to rewrite them?--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 02:51, 25 January 2019 (UTC)


 * User:Pashley?-TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 19:18, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

About "budol-budol" modus operandi
I think I got things right about the use of hypnosis in the budol-budol modus operandi, but I think this guide's coverage about that danger needs to be improved slightly. As far as I know, it's rather rare for budol-budol members to pick out foreigners, but we need further ideas about it, aside from how to identify one involved in this crime. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 17:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Measles outbreak
A measles outbreak occurred in Luzon, including Metro Manila. Should we need an warning for this page, or just the regions (Luzon, Metro Manila, Central Luzon) affected?--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 03:23, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * User:Pashley?--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 21:33, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * FYI, there is a US State Department advisory issued to the Philippines due to the measles outbreak. Other countries (e.g. Canada, Australia, UK) are yet to follow suit, but have info about vaccines. I since added a warning box after checking some news sources and the US State Department advisories.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 22:22, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * More international news articles: CNN and The Straits Times.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 23:21, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Sleeveless tops, and swimming with shirts on
I made major edits on the "Clothing" section, but I need to ask about. As a local, wearing a sleeveless shirt, locally called sando, may be acceptable in a very casual location like beaches or most touristy locations, but I don't either know well if it a bit out of place for a walk in a city center where such clothing is sometimes stereotypically associated with gangs or thugs. Another thing I found also is that it's common for locals to swim even with a shirt on, which might be prohibited, but is quite common, even in resorts, for modesty reasons. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 03:53, 7 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Some foreigners do that, perhaps in some cases for modesty, but I think mostly to avoid sunburn. Pashley (talk) 04:32, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Symbol for pesos
The Philippine peso, denoted by the symbol "₱" (or simply P, without the double strike, as officially sanctioned by the national bank)

Why are we using a less-common, unofficial symbol for Philippine pesos? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:57, 29 March 2019 (UTC)


 * As far as I know, the double strike symbol we now use is correct. I see both in the country & have been assuming the unadorned P was just a simplification or symptom of laziness. See also Philippine peso sign. Pashley (talk) 04:13, 30 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Well, we should resolve this. Either the P is official or it's not. Are both official? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:07, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia says: "The peso is usually denoted by the symbol "₱". Other ways of writing the Philippine peso sign are "PHP", "PhP", "Php", or just "P"."
 * The Bangko Sentral seems to use P (and both peso and piso in its regulations (see Sec. 13). Elsewhere on its website, it uses P and PHP. Ground Zero (talk) 14:04, 30 March 2019 (UTC)


 * The use of both "₱" and the simple P seems to be used almost equally in my experience, and if consensus says, we may make that move to use just "P", given the argument the central bank uses just the unadorned symbol.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 23:04, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The discussion is about the line at the top of this section. I don't think there is a proposal here to stop using ₱. Our policy (WV:$) is to use ₱. Ground Zero (talk) 23:40, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I would indeed argue for deprecating the use of the barred P in favor of the simple capital P if the latter is official and used as much or more. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:54, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Is ₱ actually unofficial? On what basis do you think that? If it is widely used, then I don't see why we wouldn't use it here. It is probably clearer for the traveller than P. Ground Zero (talk) 00:19, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Your post just above mentions what the Bangko Sentral does, and TagaSanPedroAko also makes a good argument. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:27, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * As in the case of naming articles, where we use the common name instead of the official name, if ₱ is commonly used, then we can use it too. It seems like we're trying to fix something that isn't broken.
 * If we are going to change the policy, then I think there should also be a plan put forward to change all of the articles that use ₱. Just changing the policy and puttint all of those articles off-side doesn't seem like a good use of time. Ground Zero (talk) 03:08, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't know how to program a bot, but I'm guessing it wouldn't be difficult to just globally replace all instances of ₱ with P and then manually add back some as needed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:46, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

I still don't see the point of replacing one commonly-used symbol with another commonly-used symbol. Ground Zero (talk) 07:13, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The question is which symbol is more commonly used, and if they are equally common and one is official, well then... Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:45, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I'll ask again if we have any evidence that ₱ is not official. Saying that the Bangko Sentral doesn't use is not the same as quoting a regulation or legislation stating that P is the official symbol. You are proposing to make a big change based on an inference.
 * Even if P were "official", then it would be a lot of work replacing one commonly-used symbol with another. I would feel differently if I worked for the Bangko Sentral, but I don't. There is no benefit to travellers in changing this. Ground Zero (talk) 07:59, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I doubt it would really be that much work. All we need is a global search-and-replace bot. Is that really hard? TagaSanPedroAko, what do you know about which symbol is official? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:18, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I've searched, and I've found a number of websites that say ₱ is the currency's symbol, and nothing that says P is "official". Ikan Kekek, if your argument rests on P being "official", I think you should provide some support for the argument beyond that is used by the bank. It appears to me that the Bangko Sentral does not regulate the use of a currency symbol. If you have evidence to show that it does, it would be helpful to see it. Ground Zero (talk) 08:35, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't have my own evidence. I'm reacting to what's in this thread. Do you ever once see me asserting something? I present a problem, ask questions and make "if" statements and remarks about what a bot would do if we decide a change is best. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:03, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The statement is question says that the use of P is "officially sanctioned by the national bank". Does that make it the only official symbol as you wrote above ("... and one is official ...)? I think that's where we're getting caught up. I can't find any support for the claim that only one symbol is official. And even if it is, if both symbols are commonly used, then changing from one tongue other provides no benefit to travellers, who are unlikely to have any interaction with the central bank. Ground Zero (talk) 09:53, 31 March 2019 (UTC)


 * To add up, I really added the simple P on the "Buy section" to note another common symbol over what we use here. Even where the BSP says "P" is used for pesos under its official regulations as quoted, I think we may end up this thread saying we will still continue using the striked symbol, just as how we don't use official names for our place articles. And for the "officially sanctioned" wording, if it seems to be wrong wording, then we can change it to clarify BSP's policy on the Philippine peso symbol. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 21:52, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I have no personal stake in what symbol we use on this site, but which one is more common in informal situations and which is more common in official situations? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:23, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks TagaSanPedroAko. I've adjusted the wording. I've also added in piso, which is what the central bank uses in English. I've posted notes at WV:RFC and WV:$'s talk page to invite comments from others. Ground Zero (talk) 12:53, 1 April 2019 (UTC)


 * I object to using piso since peso is, I think, much more widely used in English & I see it often in the country. I'd say mention it once as an alternate spelling, then use peso everywhere else. Pashley (talk) 04:21, 4 April 2019 (UTC)


 * I see User:ARR8 has been giving many of these a template, e,g. which currently displays . This seems a good idea, though I cannot see that it is actually necessary, I do not think changing the template (or anything else) to use unadorned P would be sensible. Pashley (talk) 04:30, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks Pashley. "Piso" is mentioned once under "Buy" as an alternative, but "peso" is used everywhere else. Ground Zero (talk) 08:05, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised we're arguing about the peso sign. The striked P is the official sign, but since keyboards don't support it (thank you, use of standard U.S. keyboards!), the simple P is more common. However, wherever possible, the peso sign is used. A lot of advertising in the Philippines, for example, uses the peso sign when prices are mentioned, and in writing, the peso sign is more common. --Sky Harbor (talk) 06:11, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
 * That point would seem to pretty much settle it. TagaSanPedroAko, your reaction? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:15, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree with Sky Harbor. Both the P with slash or the unadorned one have currency in advertising in my experience as a local. We could just note the use of the unadorned P in the "Currency" section to clarify things further. --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 05:05, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Bloat
I will be blunt: this article is bloated.

A lot of the information here can either be removed or spun off into separate articles. Do we really need entire sections talking about specific kinds of food, specific sections on supermarkets, or two sections on homosexuality?

One of the things I've wanted to do with this article is to trim a lot of this bloat, making information more concise for travelers. But I wonder where we can start with this, and what you folks think ought to be removed, what ought to be spun off, and what ought to be rewritten. The article as is, quite frankly, is not in good shape. --Sky Harbor (talk) 06:17, 15 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The extensive Eat and Drink information could be moved to a "Cuisine of the Philippines" article, like the ones here and leave a short abstract here. -- ϒψιλον (talk ) 08:05, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I think Sky Harbor has a good point. This article (259,000 bytes) is longer than United States of America (253,000 bytes). The Philippines has 101 million people, covers 300,000 km², and receives 8 million foreign visitors a year. The USA has 327 million people, covers 9.8 million km², and receives 70 million foreign visitors a year (it also has huge domestic tourism). Ground Zero (talk) 10:25, 15 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes, but in some ways the Philippines is more complex. To me (Canadian) it feels much more foreign than the US & I suspect the same might be true for European travellers. There are at least half a dozen regions with their own native languages with a few million speakers each; see Visayan languages for some of them. The range from bustling modern city to bamboo hut is enormous. And so on. Pashley (talk) 14:52, 27 May 2019 (UTC)


 * I agree that the article is too long & needs trimming, though I think mostly just editing for better cohesion & flow rather than removing bloat. I've done some edits recently that shortened & I hope clarified sections, but I've also been adding material. I will do more, but am unlikely to get close to doing it all. Volunteers?
 * Could a link to Travel in developing countries replace some text here? Diving in the Philippines? Bargaining? etc.
 * Over the past year or so, User:TagaSanPedroAko has contributed extensively to the article. I'd like to see his or her comments on this. Pashley (talk) 14:37, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The China article, about a country of 1.4 billion people covering 9.6 million km², is only 241,000 bytes. China is much more diverse and complex than the Philippines. There is no doubt that the information that has been added is useful to travellers, but overall, the article and the information would be more useful if detailed information were moved into separate articles, e.g., Driving in the Philippines, Shopping in the Philippines, and Food and drink in the Philippines. Also, the Philippines section is lengthy, and doesn't belong do early in the article. Perhaps it should be moved to the Cope section towards the end, and trimmed down a bit. Ground Zero (talk) 13:02, 19 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I agree. I have moved it, but not yet done any trimming. Pashley (talk) 15:14, 19 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I have a draft related to driving in the Philippines, but while it already has enough content, I haven't moved it to main namespace. Once I moved it, you may help with dealing with the excessive stuff already in the article. I also agree with having Shopping in the Philippines and Filipino cuisine pages as well .to deal with this matter, but for the other topics, I'll be thinking about them.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 23:23, 19 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Something worth considering in any effort to clean this up is the extent to which having more text here lets us simplify lower-level articles. For example, I created redirects at jeepney and traysikel to parts of this article, improved those sections, then removed unnecessary detail in some lower-level articles & added wikilinks to the redirects in those & others. I tried to do something similar for the girlie bars but that effort was sabotaged, see.
 * We have had a problem with people putting too much info on supermarkets into various articles; for one example see Talk:Cebu_(city) and several earlier discussions at Talk:Cebu_(city)/Archive_2014-2017. Could a similar strategy work for those? Or for all the Filipino fast food chains? Pashley (talk) 14:38, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Progress on reorganizing the article to improve readability
I have created the Shopping in the Philippines and Filipino cuisine pages and transferred detailed text there, and cut back on the repetition and wordiness of other parts. It didn't make sense to have the long section on train travel when there are only trains in one island.

User:TagaSanPedroAko, are you going to implement your draft related to driving in the Philippines so that we can cut back the detail in that section? Thanks. Ground Zero (talk) 05:55, 5 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I already moved the draft to mainspace; it is still an Outline topic so we can move any excessive info from the main article to that one.-TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 02:41, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

The article has been reduced in size from 253,000 bytes to 204,000, largely by moving text into articles for specific audiences. I encourage editors to try to keep this readable and useful by not loading it up with everything thee is to know about the Philippines. The information is more useful to travellers if it can be found in the correct articles, like the specific topic articles, or in regional or city articles. Ground Zero (talk) 19:23, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Philippines
I think this section could use heavy trimming. There is some duplication & a lot of unnecessary historical detail. Pashley (talk) 02:06, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Good work! Ground Zero (talk) 12:58, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Driving
We currently have Driving in the Philippines plus Philippines under "get around" and Philippines under "stay safe". I think both sections here could be greatly reduced, perhaps to a sentence or two each and a link, but do not feel like tackling the task myself. Volunteers? Pashley (talk) 17:55, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Done. Ground Zero (talk) 19:17, 17 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Bravo. Pashley (talk) 23:37, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Bus travel
I expanded the "By bus" subsection under "Get around", and I am considering creating a separate article for it, which may even have a list of carriers and contact info: Bus travel in the Philippines. I see that further expanding the "By bus" will just increase the article size again since we trimmed a lot. Any help needed. --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 06:40, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Folk diseases and medicinal concepts involving wind
I just added an infobox about folk diseases involving exposure to wind, but I have no idea about some folk cures, even as a local. Does someone know about this? --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 03:01, 27 April 2019 (UTC)


 * I know about this in Malaysia. If you really want to know a lot, read my mother's book, as she was a very eminent anthropologist who devoted a great amount of time and effort to thoroughly understand concepts of angin (wind) and its role in sickness, health and traditional psychotherapeutic practice in Terengganu. But the short version is that traditional Malay concepts of personality include the winds, winds of desire that blow through your chest when you are in trance and your archetype is invoked, but that at all times manifest as drives and talents - the drive to be royalty, the drive to escape a higher status, the drive to heal, the drive to be a performer, the drive to be a ware-tiger, etc. If these winds are flattered by being fulfilled, a person is happy. If they are thwarted, a person gets sick and traditionally needed a healing ceremony to be made better. Healing ceremonies used to involve a bomoh (shaman, who went into trance and spoke in the voices of spirits) and a minduk (medium who played the rebab and had a dialogue with the bomoh during the ceremony). While the bomoh was in trance he (usually he) would help the patient to get into trance and call upon the patient's angin if the disease seemed to involve wind (rather than, for example, offended hantu - spirits). The patient would often act out whatever it was that s/he was thwarted in. For example, there was a fat woman who had the angin to be the heroine of the Mak Yong (traditional Malay opera), but she was too fat to be able to do that professionally. So once a year, she hired some bomoh, and while in trance, she was the most graceful Mak Yong princess you could ever see! She came out of tranced happy and refreshed, though a bit embarrassed, and was good until the next year. I personally witnessed this, and my mother wrote a much fuller account with transcripts in the book I linked above.


 * There is another type of sickness for which you need minyak angin ("wind oil") to deal with symptoms. Minyak angin is menthol oil. Tiger Balm is also used. Perhaps you have experienced this put on your temples or on some sore spot on your body.


 * Finally, in Malay, masuk angin (literally, "enter wind") means "stale", such as for a loaf of bread.


 * To the extent that Filipinos are Malay in culture, it wouldn't surprise me at all if some features of this concept of personality or traditional healing might apply, but I don't know. Meanwhile, in Malaysia, much of this is lost, as the practice of traditional medicine incorporated pre-Islamic beliefs that made it diabolical to Islamic purists and has also been deprecated by city Malays as supposedly inferior to modern medicine, which I would argue is a fundamental misunderstanding out of ignorance, but who would pay attention to me, anyway? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:15, 27 April 2019 (UTC)


 * I understand that, but those arguments might be more relevant for the "Stay healthy" section in the Malaysia (or more specifically, Terengganu) page, in an infobox like the one discussing masuk hangin and angin duduk in the Indonesia page. To me, there seems to be many similarities about how Filipinos believe wind causes flu-like diseases, and I think some points might be applicable, such as applying therapeutic oils to points in the body, but I still have no good idea. --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 04:37, 27 April 2019 (UTC)


 * I should specify that those arguments have no travel relevance. I really don't know about these things in specific relevance to any part of the Philippines. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:40, 27 April 2019 (UTC)


 * I see, and those you said about "wind oil" help me recall how menthol oil is used in therapeutic massage (hilot) practiced by an albularyo (folk healer), which seems to be a cure to exposure to hangin. Closing windows seems to be another preventive measure by locals when sleeping at home or at an overnight highway bus. Other points I saw on the "Break like the wind" infobox in the Indonesia page that might be applicable to the infobox I added is farting or burping as cures. Back home, locals in the countryside, especially elders, say that farting (utot) allows wind inside the body to escape, but I don't know if burping is also another folk cure, that might be answerable by somebody who might know this matter better, as I haven't heard that or have just forgotten those advice.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 06:05, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Time formatting
Which is most common in the Philippines: the 12-hour clock (e.g., noon-2PM and 6PM-midnight), or the 24-hour clock (e.g., 12:00-14:00 and 18:00-00:00)? Ground Zero (talk) 12:46, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * ? Ground Zero (talk)
 * 12-hour clock except for public transport, where the 24-hour clock is used (e.g. at the airport). That said, I like the 24-hour clock for its uniformity, as opposed to how we currently write out the 12-hour clock on Wikivoyage. --Sky Harbor (talk) 17:21, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Sky. Our policy dies tell us to use one format per article -- whichever is the most common. Mixing formats within an article is confusing and looks messy. I also prefer the 24-hour clock, but if it's the 12-hour clock that is used, then we should stick with that. Thanks. Ground Zero (talk) 17:28, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Barya lang sa umaga: No change trick?
I need further input whether the barya lang sa umaga rule is a version of the no-change trick, as long as my local knowledge is concerned, and I also need to ask if that rule seems to occur also in buses. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 00:12, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Opinions? --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 23:28, 19 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Never heard of it. Carrying some small bills or coins to avoid getting stung by people who claim not to have change is good advice almost anywhere, Is it covered by No advice from Captain Obvious? Pashley (talk) 01:24, 20 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I frequently encounter that scheme around Tagalog-speaking areas (I'm a native Tagalog speaker myself) especially in large cities (including Manila), but I don't see anything that makes this obvious. Jeep, taxi or trike drivers refusing even low denominations bills (and only asking for coins, insisting they don't have any change yet) during morning trips is common in those places but not elsewhere (or even outside the country), but don't the same thing occurs in other parts of the Philippines? Places like the Visayas?-TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 06:47, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * In Canada and western Europe, I don't worry about carrying change because it will be very rare that a merchant won't have change. I've been to many other countries whether that isn't true, and I've learned to try to "break" large bills whenever I can so that I get change back. It's worth mentioning, I think. Ground Zero (talk) 11:59, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Palawan-Borneo boats?
I've seen a number of things claiming there are or will soon be ferries from Puerto Princesa to Borneo, e.g. New ferry service linking Kudat to Palawan in the Philippines set to boost tourism, dated Jan 2018 and says "soon".

I've done some web search but have not found confirmation, fares, etc. Pashley (talk) 20:27, 3 July 2019 (UTC)


 * This would be good to add at Philippines since the boats currently mentioned there go through the dangerous Sulu Islands area. Zamboanga, where they depart from, may also be dangerous; see warning at Zamboanga Peninsula. I would not consider taking either of the listed boats, though Filipinos might be fine. Pashley (talk) 20:40, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Sub-articles proposal
We currently have a discussion at Talk:Philippines of the country article being somewhat too long & cluttered. It is by no means the only article with similar problems. A solution that is being implemented is to move some things to Driving in the Philippines, Shopping in the Philippines, Filipino cuisine, and maybe others. We already have Diving in the Philippines.

Would it make sense to have these as sub-articles linked to the main one, Philippines/Cuisine, Philippines/Driving, etc.? I think we could fairly easily come up with a standard set applicable to most countries, probably plus some continents & regions. The advantage of standardising a naming convention would be to make them easier to find or link to, certainly not necessary but perhaps worth discussing.

In many cases these articles would be short or absent; I do not think there is anything to say about driving in Belgium except that they drive on the right, you do not need a Carnet de Passages for your vehicle & they allow most European licenses & the International Driving permit. Pashley (talk) 14:42, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd agree with standardized names for articles that we have,but I don't agree with creating redlinks or stubs. They only make the guide look incomplete. Not every country needs a scuba diving article, a cuisine article, a driving article, etc. Ground Zero (talk) 15:47, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I've thought about the sub-page system (it's actually what Wikipedia used 'way back in the day). It might have advantages in the search box, because if you type "Philippines" in the search box, you should see things that start with "Philippines", which would include "Philippines/Driving".  You won't easily find Driving in the Philippines under the current system, if you start by searching (here/not via Google Search) for something that starts with "Philippines" instead of "Driving".
 * I don't know if there are any disadvantages, other than the hassle of moving everything. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:26, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with standardising article names of a certain type (but do any of our driving articles currently not have the title "Driving in [place]"?) However, I would prefer articles had complete names, rather than these stiff abbreviations. What we could do is create a redirect at 'Philippines/Driving' which would appear in the search bar when readers typed "Phili", and would get them to the correct article. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:30, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
 * To list all the topics on a region:-
 * produces:-
 * What exactly is the problem trying to be solved? List all topics on the country page or find using search field? If second could always set up a page "Philippines topics". --Traveler100 (talk) 17:39, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree that this looks like a solution in search of a problem.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:08, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Would then have a region hierarchy under Travel Topics down to country level which would then list travel topics in the category. I think we should also consider merging the concept of Itineraries into Travel Topics, listing under type of activity e.g. hiking or driving and then also on the region page (in region category). --Traveler100 (talk) 17:46, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Would then have a region hierarchy under Travel Topics down to country level which would then list travel topics in the category. I think we should also consider merging the concept of Itineraries into Travel Topics, listing under type of activity e.g. hiking or driving and then also on the region page (in region category). --Traveler100 (talk) 17:46, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Pawnshops
These are very common & are mentioned at Talk:Metro_Cebu. Part of one of my comments:
 * Pawnshops are not usually of great interest to travellers, though they are fairly often used to send money to a girlfriend, scammer, landlord or whatever. I see far more Filipinos using them to send or receive funds than for pawning or buying things & I think we should mention that.
 * To my surprise, I find no mention of pawnshops in Philippines. Add something there & link to it here? We've done that for other nationwide things like jeepney or traysikel.

Should they be mentioned here? Pashley (talk) 00:21, 13 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Yeah, pawnshops in the Philippines serve as a one-stop shop for other financial services, including money transfer and other things (many national pawnshop chains such as Cebuana Lhuillier advertise themselves as such). -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 02:42, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I would suggest only a brief mention (if any) here as they are not of interest to many travellers. A more detailed discussion could fit in Shopping in the Philippines. Ground Zero (talk) 03:06, 13 July 2019 (UTC)


 * ✅ I added a short section under Cope, at Philippines. Pashley (talk) 13:42, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Proposed abolition of visa upon arrival
There are already news about plans to abolish visa upon arrival due to an influx of Chinese migrant workers and tourists, and the national security risk they pose. I am considering adding a note on Get In but I don't know what is the best wording to use if we add one. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 17:15, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
 * How about adding it in when it happens? We should focus on providing practical information for people travelling now, instead of speculation and "plans". The article is already growing again as more gets added. Let's focus on the most relevant and important stuff in order to have a more useful article for travellers. Ground Zero (talk) 17:30, 8 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I'll be looking also at the most recent updates about that matter, but the planned abolition of visa upon arrival seems to be still in paper as long the local media reports are concerned. Yes, we'll add the note I'm considering once the plan pushes through. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 18:52, 8 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Visa on arrival has been stopped for Chinese because of the coronavirus scare, according to several Filipino sources.
 * As far as I can tell stopping the v-o-a for Americans was a threat in a Duterte speech & is still current as a rumour, but no action has been taken. Pashley (talk) 06:46, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Colorum vehicles
The problem with colorum (unfranchised or unlicensed) public utility vehicles really deserves a mention as something avoided due to questionable safety (e.g. driving habits, scams), but where should we handle like this on the page? --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 03:09, 9 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Stay safe, probably. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:29, 9 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I think so, especially on a "Road travel" section. We already have a "Driving section", but we may expand that with info about colorum and rename that section.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 03:58, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
 * This is useful information to add, but again I'm going to ask that we try to focus on adding practical information for travelers (such as this), and not add a lot of background information, technical details and just stuff that is interesting about the Philippines. Adding extraneous stuff makes it more difficult for readers to find the important information. We can make this a better travel guide by limiting what we add,cracking out what is lees important, and avoiding repetition and excessive detail.
 * Since I cut the article way back, it has started expanding again, relentlessly. One way to make it better is to try to remove as much text as you add: when adding useful information like this, take a look at the article to see if you can remove an equal amount of less important text. That way, you will be making the article better, not just longer. Ground Zero (talk) 12:18, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Through my recent edits, I've demonstrated how, by reducing repetition, wordiness and excessive detail, we can make the important information in this article easier to find. Please join me in doing this. Ground Zero (talk) 12:54, 9 August 2019 (UTC)


 * This is a much more general problem than the Philippines; avoiding touts & unlicensed taxis is good advice more-or-less anywhere. It is already mentioned at Travel_in_developing_countries & this article already links to that one. Do we need a more specific link? Is a link all we need here? Pashley (talk) 23:15, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

why would you put the whole discussion about colorum vehicles in two places in the article, especially after we've had this discussion? Do you actually want to make the article as long as possible? That does not help travellers.

Also, the article should focus on information that is applicable to the whole country. Jeepney fares in individual provinces and towns do not belong here. Information on a cruise between two cities does not belong here. Ground Zero (talk) 09:48, 12 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I meant some of our guides might provide info on routes where unfranchised jeepney operations are common, and advice whether to avoid them, and I noted that they are normal elsewhere in developing areas. I didn't mention any specific fares, but I mentioned clues (lack of route markings and destination signs, "not for hire" decals, and the license plate) for the traveller. How did the clues make things longer, and where can this stuff be better handled? -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 18:19, 12 August 2019 (UTC)


 * TagaSanPedro, I don't know what you mean by clues. I am talking about repeating the colorum information which you added here. Also there was a lot of information that was local in nature, not national, such as this and this. And
 * I removed a bunch of examples here that provide local, not national information. Ground Zero (talk) 10:18, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

I think this needs a short warning at jeepney, perhaps also at traysikel, similar to the (too long?) one we have at habal-habal. Both should be short, two sentences at most, & should concentrate on how to recognise unlicensed vehicles, The term colorum need not be mentioned; it does not matter to visitors. Pashley (talk) 16:51, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

More on bloat
You could help by not adding excessive detail and repetition in the first place. If you've told readers that the windows on ordinary buses are left open, do you need to tell them that they will be exposed to the wind and rain? Our readers are assumed to be fairly clever, so stating the obvious is unnecessary, and makes the article dull. Telling readers that there are two classes of buses, but then saying there are actually three is confusing and pointless. Is the number of doors on a bus really important? If the buses vary within a class, then we can just leave that info out rather than explaining how the buses vary. If you want to put this detailed information into a separate article, go ahead. It just doesn't belong in a country-level article, and I will keep taking it out if you keep putting it back in. Ground Zero (talk) 13:49, 15 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I agree. I have looked at Ground Zero's recent edits to the "by bus" section & consider them definitely an improvement, though I might edit further. Pashley (talk) 15:53, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

, I've been offline for a while and come back to see that you are continuing to dump into the article every thing that you think of, and expecting others to clean up after you. And you are continuing to ignore the advice that I and other editors are giving you. Why do you think it is essential for travelers to know that Jollibee and McDonald's are phasing out plastic straws? Is that something that is really going to impact a traveler? Especially when it is happening in so many countries? Please remember that WV:tone encourages us to use a "lively" style of writing. Minute details and repetition are boring. Use your own discretion: you know the country better than most of us. It is far better for you to decide what is more important and what is less important in the Philippines. Please try to remove as much text as you are adding to keep this article concise and focused on what the traveler needs to know. And please stop ignoring the advice you are getting from us. Ground Zero (talk) 01:49, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Buy: Mobile payments
I think that we shoulder also mention mobile payments (e.g. Smart PayMaya, Globe GCash, Grab Pay) as well, though they are common only in large cities (and tourist areas) and are not usable at most places. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 06:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I cannot see that that is of much interest to visitors. Pashley (talk) 21:37, 19 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I see it relevant for long-term travelers or frequent visitors. I just added a section about it, but it really needs improvements, as I did not experience using any of them. --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 07:44, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Cruises
There's only one listing in this section, and it seems touty. I think either various cruise lines should be mentioned in prose, perhaps with links but no full listings, or the section should be deleted per don't tout and tour. But no way do I think we should leave it as an advertisement for one agency. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:01, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

The perfect cone shaped volcano
Why did you not include Legazpi City? Mayon V (talk) 01:58, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Are you proposing adding it to the "Cities" section? Per 7+2, only 9 cities can be listed there in articles for countries or non-bottom-level regions. So which city should it substitute for and why? Make a proposal. And this isn't "you"; it's us. All of us. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:32, 23 December 2019 (UTC)