Talk:Perth

This article
Is this article being maintained by Perth locals or 'wikivoyagers' ??? It's pretty misleading :/


 * If you'd be more specific we could improve it.

--150.101.89.130 02:38, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
 * huh? this edit is 7 years old? sats (talk) 02:53, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Safety
Once again after more than a year of just letting this one go I have put back the "Avoid Mirrabooka" and added the ethnic (African and Aboriginal) gang terms back in to this article. If this American tourist had of known about aboriginal gangs at Mirrabooka bus station, it's probable he would have been able to avoid the situation he found him self in and not ended up looking like this.

Also I have added a newer trend in that more buses now are coming under attacks by Aboriginal youths throwing rocks as well as a general increase in assaults on Perth buses.

Look this is not meant to be racist in anyway but rather used as a way of identifying people who may be of potential danger to a tourist similar to the Hungarian article about avoiding gypsies. Gangs of white and Asian youths also exist in Perth but these gangs tend to fight among them self and generally avoid effecting wider society. Aboriginal people in particular have many social problems that are generally no fault of their own but rather caused by the society and groups of people that they are forced to live around. Most of these problems with aboriginal and African gangs are a direct result of government mismanagement of the needs of these people and aboriginal and african people see public transport as just another government body and so it's natural that they would vent some of their frustration out in these areas.

-z80


 * Seeing as one of my recent edits was edited out, can we discuss race/safety issues a little bit here to get some sort of agreement?


 * Someone keeps putting in a section saying visitors should avoid areas like WSBS and Mirrabooka where "African" and Aboriginal people are fighting turf warfare, or some such argument. Me, I've never seen or heard of this problem anywhere - not read about it nor experienced it personally. So I deleted it and recommend it stays that way.


 * On the other hand, I have personally experienced problems with Aboriginal people demanding money and cigarettes. I have got out of various scrapes in various places with by just stopping and having a chat, but this never seems to work here. A number of my acquaintances have had similar experiences, so I do strongly recommend avoiding contact with Aboriginal people on the street, unless you have appropriate cultural knowledge. (I don't really want to get into an argument about why this is the case, because there are clearly very big problems that I don't have answers to).


 * Maybe it is a case of noting places to avoid? Problem is, that means that the Macca's end Forrest Place would be out of bounds!


 * Comments? Suggestions?
 * 58.7.196.243 19:43, 5 January 2007 (EST)


 * My apologies to the person who thought that the “Stay save” section I edited was racist, but I really think it is important. Today I saw a loan young Aboriginal woman, who was doing nothing at all, being assaulted by a group of 3 African young men.


 * As I work around these two areas, I often see this, usually about 2-3 times a week depending how much I work, and it's both sides, one day it will be Aboriginal against African, the next it will be the other way around. Mirabooka Bus Station is often closed by Secure Force or the police and buses simply have to find another place to drop their passengers (not as easy as it sounds).


 * It's a sad fact of our Perth society, but it does put the general public at risk and so despite the obvious racial implications people need to know this.


 * It should be obvious that this is just a very small element of these groups.


 * I don't think it's appropriate to reference this statement with police reports, news articals from 7 perth and ABC, as well as radio logs from secure force, the polce, and path transit, because it may make the problem appear larger than it really is.


 * Regards.. Z80


 * The Perth Zoo is located a very short walking distance. It would talk 5 minutes at the most. It would be a further walk to the bus stop than it would be to the zoo from Mend St.

guide
Is it at *Guide status yet? Keep smiling, (WT-en) Edmontonenthusiast 19:15, 3 November 2008 (EST).

I'll give this another day. If not thoughts-I'm upgrading. Keep smiling, (WT-en) ee talk 13:07, 4 November 2008 (EST).

perth dotm
Do you think Perth could be a DotM? Keep smiling, (WT-en) ee talk 19:29, 16 November 2008 (EST).

Move to just Perth?
At 1.5m inhabitants, this Perth towers way over the world's other Perths (incl. the original, a stripling of 40k), and the current name is unwieldly in the extreme. Why not move it to plain old Perth? (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:17, 5 June 2009 (EDT)


 * Considering trying this, failing objections? --(WT-en) inas 21:41, 5 January 2010 (EST)


 * Done - lets see how it works. --(WT-en) inas 17:26, 10 January 2010 (EST)

Eat listings
I just put all the restaurants into proper listings tags. Many have no information on what type of food or price the restaurant has. Im not familiar with some/most of them and don't live in Perth at the moment. It would be great if people could add at least a quick description as to if the food is Italian, Vietnamese, Fine dining or whatever. Also I tried to organize them into categories, useful or not? (WT-en) Cardboardbird 23:29, 29 January 2010 (EST)
 * Well almost a month and no input. I have done a bit more work today and added a few more listings for places I ate at last week during my visit. Those listings with little or no info should probably be deleted since they add nothing. I'll leave it as is for now and take a look in a few weeks. (WT-en) Cardboardbird 06:16, 23 February 2010 (EST)

Drink Section
I rewrote the drink section to put that long bit of prose into tags. Its not perfect but I think its closer to following the styleguide than what was there before. Like the Eat listings, there is a lot of info missing. I will see what info I can dig up online later, but since I am not in Perth right now I cant check out anything first hand. Could people have a quick look and add info they know (or delete places that have closed). I will endeavor to clean up the other sections as time permits. Thanks (WT-en) Cardboardbird 03:03, 1 February 2010 (EST)
 * Added some info today to make this more complete. But still don't know if these places are any good? Any drinkers want to do some field research? (WT-en) Cardboardbird 07:47, 2 March 2010 (EST)

If not Districts / Dividing it up?
Perth is not really big enough to be divided into districts like Sydney and the others, but the see section is getting pretty unwieldy with the new listings. I'm thinking about how a visitor would see or visit things so I divided them into Perth CBD and Outer suburbs. Places in the CBD are easy to get to and move between, but places elsewhere require more travel to get there (make it a day trip). I cant find much precedent in other articles, but it seems to look logical and cleaner to me. Any objections? (WT-en) Cardboardbird 07:47, 2 March 2010 (EST)


 * I actually think we could districtify Perth, particularly if Fremantle is included - and it should be, no matter that it is a separate city administratively. Virtually all travelers to Perth would regard Fremantle as a suburb of the city. I could easily see four or five Perth districts, but would leave that to Cardboardbird to propose :). I would be happy to help with mapping the districts. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:21, 24 March 2010 (EDT)


 * And I have just noticed that Northbridge is a separate article! Mental. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:23, 24 March 2010 (EDT)


 * The difficulty I see in districtifying Perth is that I cant see a neat way spit in to districts where all have enough interest to support a page on its own. Perth, Northbridge and Freo have enough things to see and do, as do the hills/swan valley and the coast. But the corridor of suburban sprawl in the middle has little going on. As a first run at it, maybe something like:
 * Perth CBD (including East Perth down to the casino and South Perth to the Zoo, maybe even to Subiaco)
 * Northbridge (Maybe also including Highgate/Mount Lawley in the cafe strip along Beufort st up to Walcot rd)
 * Fremantle
 * The Hills (Including the Swan Valley wineries, Guildford, Midland and Mundaring)
 * The Coast (Cottesloe, City Beach, Scarborough, Sorrento)
 * Everything else north/south of the river not covered by the other districts.


 * It's the Everything else that causes problems for me. Should it be spit into two North/South districts or combined one huge districts on one short page that lists the few fairly uninteresting (to a traveller) sights in these suburbs? Thoughts? (WT-en) Cardboardbird 07:45, 25 March 2010 (EDT)


 * Any chance you could sketch that scheme on a city map? Even a hand-drawn scheme, scanned and uploaded would help with the visualisation. We have dealt with the "uninteresting suburbs" problem before with many cities, so Perth is not unique in that respect. It does make for a dull district article, but it is probably inevitable I am afraid. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 01:34, 9 April 2010 (EDT)


 * I've sketched out my idea for where the districts would look like and put it here . In doing it, I thought a  Swan Valley district separate from The Hills might fit. Its often promoted at a destination on its own and there is enough content for decent pages on Guildford, Wineries and Wildflower areas. As you can see there is a great chunk of inner suburbs space in the middle where not much goes on. It might have enough interesting things to make one page on its own. Maybe this needs to be one district on its own? (WT-en) Cardboardbird 08:06, 12 April 2010 (EDT)

I will upload that to shared so we can see it in article here.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:05, 12 April 2010 (EDT)

Aaargh!!!! Just done so and I see it is a Google Map. That's a no-no and a breach of copyright. I will try to knock the same thing together iwth OSM - should not be too hard.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:09, 12 April 2010 (EDT)


 * OK. I have taken more or less the same area from OpenStreetMap (which we can use as a free source!). Can you please mark out the same areas on this one and reupload it? (use the same name - so it is a new version of the same map). I am bit confused as the road numbers are completely different? Cheers. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:37, 12 April 2010 (EDT)
 * Here is a new version of the map for further discussion. I got lost on the roads too. I only know names, not numbers. - (WT-en) Cardboardbird 06:46, 13 April 2010 (EDT)


 * Big coincidence.... I have just finished a draft! I managed to get the districts marked OK I think, and will upload for discussion right away. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 06:54, 13 April 2010 (EDT)

This is the first draft and let's get the ball rolling with comments. Several immediate comments from me:
 * The airport is bloody huge! =)
 * That bit of Inner Suburbs South, north of the Swan River seems odd.
 * If at all possible, district boundaries should follow a road - can adjust later when we have an agreed scheme.
 * Are the North, South and East boundaries arbitrary? Or ?--(WT-en) Burmesedays 07:28, 13 April 2010 (EDT)


 * The map looks good. As far as boundaries go. I'd say North to Mindarie (Mindarie Keys), South to Bibra Lake (Adventure World) and east to Chidlow (Lake Leschenaultia). This should capture all the points of interest. If it needs to be trimmed then cutting it east at Mundaring and North at Burns Beach wouldn't matter much. True, the extra bit of Inner Suburbs South over the river should be part of North. The river is always used as the dividing line. - (WT-en) Cardboardbird 11:37, 13 April 2010 (EDT)


 * All understood in principle although I am sure more questions will be forthcoming. It would also be helpful to have a list of dotted towns etc to show. I just chose some places I knew of! If you could post those here I will work on this and hopefully have something serviceable within 3 days. I also need a definitive source for route numbers as the sources disagree.... is there a state transit map you know of?--(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:48, 13 April 2010 (EDT)


 * Perhaps we can just include Rotto and Mandurah here, and get rid of Perth (region)? Sure, strictly speaking separate cities, but so is Freo.  --(WT-en) inas 21:26, 20 April 2010 (EDT)
 * I'd say towns/suburbs needing a dot (apart from what's there) would be: Midland, Kalamunda, Mundaring, Cottesloe, Armadale, Guildford, Chidlow and Upper Swan. I find the WP route number page to be quite accurate. This one  is much the same but it has pictures. - (WT-en) Cardboardbird 21:42, 20 April 2010 (EDT)
 * Any further thoughts about merging the Perth(region) into a simple Perth page? I'm trying to fill out the WA region pages and the Perth(region) doesn't look like it will cover anything that wont be covered in the (proposed) Perth districts. I can see it including Mandurah too. I'd like to get Perth districted up next (even if a map isn't ready) but it would be nice to know where it will all go. - (WT-en) Cardboardbird 09:35, 27 April 2010 (EDT)


 * My only issue will be the sheer vastness of the districted area: Mindarie to Mandurah is a very long way. And Rotto will stuff the scale up as it is so far to the west of the original proposed coverage. So, although it would be good to lose the Perth region, I can see including Mandurah and Rottnest as part of the city creating some real mapping issues.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:25, 27 April 2010 (EDT)


 * Aww.. come on! :-) I'm sure you (we?) can figure out the mapping issues.  Insets for Rotto?  I think we make the decisions that makes sense based on visitor regions, and then confront the mapping issues that come out of them.  --(WT-en) inas 19:09, 27 April 2010 (EDT)


 * Point taken about the size of the map. Its quite sprawling as is. Inas' idea for having insets sounds workable. Perhaps one highlevel view of the whole region (rotto to Mundaring, Mindarie to Mandurah) with an inset of a detailed view of the Perth suburbs. This should kill two birds: Get rid of the Perth(region) and include the area down to Mandurah. I don't think travellers are using these region/district maps for navigation, more as an general orientation of what where places are in relation to other places. Are there any other maps like this on WT? - (WT-en) Cardboardbird 21:09, 27 April 2010 (EDT)


 * It is not the technical aspects of the map that concern me but the scale given the size of the proposed district. How far is it from Mandurah to Mindarrie? About 130km? That would make this city districts map larger in scope than the top level regions of many countries. I think London is the largest city districting job I have seen here, and the scope of that is about 90 km across, and required 3 different maps to make sense of it. Given that some of the Perth city districts are only 2 km across, they would be invisible on the map. That could be dealt with by insets, but there would need to be at least two - one for Rotto and one for the actual city. I can see it getting very messy.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:05, 27 April 2010 (EDT)


 * Well, London has three maps to deal with the issue. in Sydney, we will have the same issue, if we every agree districts.  A couple of city centre districts are less that 1km wide, and the total city metro area is 90km from north to south.
 * In Perth, the southern extent is very coastal, so you could almost put an inset in the bottom right keeping the same width as Perth.
 * The area would have to be mapped as Perth (region) if we changed nothing, so if worst came to the worst we could just do the map we would have done for Perth (region), and then put a city centre region.  --(WT-en) inas 22:13, 27 April 2010 (EDT)


 * Progress on districting Perth seems to have stalled. I have some free time right now so I'm considering plunging forward and building on Burmesedays' fine work to with create maps and district pages. Reflecting on the discussion so far, perhaps 2 maps might work well?; one for inner-Perth (Freo, South Perth, Perth CBD/Northbridge) and another outer-Perth (everything else including Rotto). Hopefully this can fulfil everyone's suggestions. District maps will give the finer details. Unless there are any objections, I'm going to get on it in the next few days. - (WT-en) Cardboardbird 23:03, 8 June 2010 (EDT)


 * Looking forward to seeing the results of your endeavours.  --(WT-en) inas 23:14, 8 June 2010 (EDT)
 * Great to hear. Give me a shout if you have any questions about mapping. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 23:52, 8 June 2010 (EDT)

2013 update
Sheesh - the district breakup is quite a challenge - from 3 years ago - the following is ok


 * Perth CBD (including East Perth down to the casino and South Perth to the Zoo, maybe even to Subiaco)
 * Northbridge (Maybe also including Highgate/Mount Lawley in the cafe strip along Beaufort st up to Walcot rd)
 * Fremantle
 * The Hills (Kalamunda and Mundaring and beyond)
 * The Coast/Beaches (Cottesloe, City Beach, Scarborough, Sorrento)
 * Everything else north/south of the river not covered by the other districts. (travellers tourists are hardly going to find destinations in suburbia)

However it needs:-


 * Swan Valley wineries, Guildford, Midland

Unless some complaints arrive at some point, will be changing this... sats (talk) 08:08, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree. The Hills and the Swan Valley area have enough of interest to support separate districts. Go for it. - Cardboardbird (talk) 07:43, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Stay safe
What on earth is this all about: In boring old Perth? Defintiely not my experience, nor that of three people I have just asked in my office. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 01:28, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
 * "Males walking the streets alone at night are likely to get mugged and females are very likely to get raped and robbed."


 * Hmmm. I saw this along with a lot of similar edits on there this morning. I thought I had reverted them, but I guess it didn't take. Most definitely a grossly alarmist view on the relatively few violent crimes that happens. Sounds like someone with an agenda. Perth has no more, and probably less, violent crime than any other Australian city. I will have another go at getting this rubbish out. I'm not all that happy with the general tone of the whole stay safe section, but I will tackle that one later. (WT-en) Cardboardbird 07:33, 23 March 2010 (EDT)

Spelling/Grammar
I understand the casual nature of WikiVoyage, however it would nice if at least an attempt could be made to double check your spelling before you publish an edit or a new section. —The preceding comment was added by Middle Pathway (talk • contribs) 06:11, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Snow?
Not sure what is going on there in climate? Snow has only been recorded in the Perth hills 3 times since 1829, hardly something worth a mention - see http://www.feargod.net/wa-1956snow.php something that really is bit like flying pigs sats (talk) 14:41, 25 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Good point! However, Perth's remoteness is not just a claim - it's reality: The most remote city with a population in excess of one million is Auckland where the nearest city of comparable size or greater is Sydney a mere 2,168.9 kilometres (1,347.7 miles) away. Coming in a very close second at 2,139 kilometres (air travel distance) is Perth, Australia where all of us Australians should bemoan the fact that the nearest city of at least one million population is the city of festivals, Adelaide! --150.101.89.130 02:11, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

That has to come from somewhere - you dont just pick it out of your brain, or the ether... to save the poor people who dont believe most of what is in the perth article - some clue as to the assertions origin would be very useful to save further edit wars... sats (talk) 02:15, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Look mate the whole thing is pretty arbitrary and the contenders would change if you pick a smaller population of half a million say, but I don't need "sources" for the distances - just do some research and then tell me I'm wrong or put your own contenders forward. If you'd ever lived in Perth you'd know that most of them there think they're the most isolated but I won a pub bet by proving that's Auckland so there you are. --150.101.89.130 02:34, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * A Google search indicates that at best the claim is based on arbitrary contentions about what a "city" is - see Perth. In the case of disagreement the proper solution is to work out compromise language on the talk page, not to re-assert the original claim and re-insert it. -- Ryan &bull; (talk) &bull; 02:46, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, while we don't use footnotes in destination articles, when you are challenged, the correct response is to back up your assertion, not to tell your challengers to "do some research." If you can't back up your assertion, it would probably be best to concede the point. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:49, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Problem with voyage edits is that to apply and assert the reality claim requires no further proof compared to the issue being examined sufficiently as at Perth sats (talk) 02:52, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * That Wikipedia article does not give the lie to what I wrote. The most remote city with a population in excess of one million is Auckland where the nearest city of comparable size or greater is Sydney a mere 2,168.9 kilometres (1,347.7 miles) away. Coming in a very close second at 2,139 kilometres (air travel distance) is Perth, Australia, so exactly why is it misleading to write, as I did: "Perth is the capital and largest city of Western Australia. It's one of the most isolated cities of over one million residents on the planet, separated from Adelaide (the nearest city with over one million inhabitants) by 2,139km..." ? For neighbouring cities of more than one million or more it's a true, factual statement since it's the second most isolated. Have I got my measurements or populations wrong? Pick different population thresholds and your mileage will vary. --150.101.89.130 03:57, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * This is fast losing any real usefulness for voyage - as Ryan and Ikan have said, on voyage where anything is contested it is removed and then checked so a compromise or resolution might be reached. The voyage site is for people to understand places where they might wish to travel, to labour over whether perth is isolated - (the article itself repeatedly refers to isolation)  - so what?  I personally felt more isolated living in Darwin than I ever have in Perth.  Reduced services, lack of backup for a whole range of expected facilities, and less assured of adequate range of a whole lot of expected things you get when living in the rest of australia.  I would personally see more purpose to labour over warning travellers more about what not to expect in Darwin due to isolation - Perths supposed isolation is a redundant issue really, it does not affect anything but travel costs - whereas Darwins has specific serious affect. sats (talk) 04:29, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Whether it feels isolated or not is a different issue - I'd agree that it doesn't feel in the least isolated and you can also make a good argument for saying that such a true factual statement that I made doesn't belong in the beginning section of this guide. But you've already probably collectively expended more time than would have been required to check and either confirm or contradict the factual accuracy of my correction when you needlessly added (as if it were untrue) the words claimed to be as if there were some doubt as to the veracity of the qualified claim.
 * Now this discussion has been useful, because I do agree that we need to point out that this metric reality of being one of the most isolated cities of over one million residents on the planet has little practical effect for travellers - and also point out the advantages of "isolation". --150.101.89.130 04:43, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * You're right that there are facts that are encyclopedic and not particularly relevant to travellers. We usually leave those out, unless they're super-interesting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:52, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

a bit off topic
My (german) girlfriend is visiting Perth for the next two weeks. Is there anything worth visiting especially that time? She'd like to have contact with some locals. -- Cherubino (talk) 07:40, 22 October 2015 (UTC) (admin german wikipedia)


 * She will be there during Melbourne Cup Day (an important horse racing event). There should be plenty of buzz in Perth around it as well, so easy to meet new people on the 3rd November. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:05, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Limo tours
Are these allowed under this site's tour listing policy? I doubt it. I think special exceptions can be made, like the black taxi tours in Belfast, but Perth doesn't have an unusual history of intercommunal violence and resulting propaganda murals, so I think these listings are probably inadmissible. Your thoughts? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:53, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * A propos, I've deleted the rather promotional-sounding introduction to that section. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:09, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Similarly, we really want to list a party bus for some group of drunk barhopping tourists to charter? Here's the deleted content:
 * By bus charter
 * If you want to do one-day or half-day tour with 10 people or more, then a bus charter  will be cheaper: Midland Bus, Party Bus Hire Perth/, Westwide, Bus West and Horizon West.
 * Wikivoyage caters to independent travelers. We have party buses in New York, too. I don't want to see listings for them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:12, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

[unindent]

I've moved this entire subsection here, as I consider it touting and not relevant to the readers this site means to serve:

By private chauffeur


Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:12, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

"By airport shuttle"
I've moved this here because: (1) it was in "Get around", and airport shuttles are not for getting around the city but for getting from the airport (and ergo a subsection of "Get in/By plane"); (2) its tone feels somewhat promotional to me; (3) relatedly, there's only one company mentioned and linked, unless I misunderstand something:

By airport shuttle

Airport shuttle can be most easiest way to get from airport to different parts of Perth. Airport shuttle Perth offers airport to Perth city shuttle for just $ 24 per person, they also offers shuttle services from Perth airport to Fremantle. They have a special price for a group of people so if you are a family of 6 or more it might be cheaper for you because they can charge you a group transfers rate which could be cheaper, Easiest way to get in touch with them is by filling out their booking form.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:15, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Walking tours
I took these sentences out of "Get around", because walking tours don't exist to get around but as an activity (ergo, "Do"), but I also don't know what to do with this content:

Perth city has at times had books and pamphlets for self guided walking tours.

Two Feet and a Heartbeat has guided walking tours.

OK, how is it helpful to know that Perth "has at times had books and pamphlets"? Maybe a book collector or historian would be interested to know that. But are such books and pamphlets readily available now?

Also, is there really only one company that does walking tours in Perth? I doubt it, but clarify if that's true. And do those walking tours concentrate on one district or are they so widely distributed around the city that they should have a listing on this page? I'd like to see a templated listing somewhere. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:20, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Links in "Get in/By taxi"
It's not Wikivoyage style to provide mere links. What do you think we should do with those? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:29, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

A freeway is missing from the static map
I just had a quick look at Perth on OSM and it seems our static map omits the Tonkin Highway (Hwy 4) north of Reid Highway (Hwy 3). I've never been to Perth or WA so I don't know whether this freeway will be a useful addition to the static map, but it seems like a road that most travellers will use to travel north-northeast from Perth, more so than the Great Northern Highway (Hwy 95). I had a quick look on Google Maps to see what these roads look like, but when I do visit the Perth Region, I think I'm more likely to use this highway over this. However, there has to be a reason why this was omitted and before I do go ahead on Inkscape and add Tonkin Highway, I'd like to know whether a) it's a useful addition and b) why it was omitted. -- SHB2000  (talk &#124; contribs &#124; meta) 01:42, 28 September 2022 (UTC)