Talk:Organized crime tourism

Organised crime article
I was thinking if perhaps we should create an article called Organised crime. Of course, we are not going to teach people how to commit crimes, or to give people information on how to join gangs, but it is certainly true that many tourist attractions are known for their connection to organised crime. For instance, many speakeasies in the United States were run by the mafia in the years of Prohibition, and some gangsters like Al Capone are very much household names. Similarly, Australia is known for the bushrangers during the colonial era, and in Melbourne you can visit exhibits connected to Ned Kelly, perhaps the most famous of them all. So such an article can be tourism focused and provided people with information on the sites connected with famous gangsters throughout history. The dog2 (talk) 17:53, 11 July 2019 (UTC)


 * A bit like history of justice, only for organized crime?
 * Or do you think it would make more sense to have an itinerary for specific locations ("The mafia in New York", "Gangs in the Wild West", "Gangs you've probably never heard of in Chicago", etc.)?  WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:10, 11 July 2019 (UTC)


 * In the case of Chicago, we can list places connected to famous gangsters such as the Green Mill for Al Capone, the Green Door Tavern for Dean O’Banion and the Twin Anchors Restaurant for Bugs Moran. All these places were operated by the mafia during Prohibition so you could get illegal booze. We could also list museums connected with famous gangsters such as the Bonnie and Clyde Ambush Museum in Louisiana for Bonnie and Clyde. And in Australia, you can visit the Old Melbourne Gaol where Ned Kelly was hanged, and you can also see his armour in the State Library of Victoria. The dog2 (talk) 18:17, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Go for it. Depending on how far back you want to go, or how loosely you want to define organised crime, you could include sites associated with famous highwaymen from the stagecoach era.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:17, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
 * As a starter, it can be a section of the history of justice articles. /Yvwv (talk) 07:09, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I've created the article. Please help to expand on it. The dog2 (talk) 14:04, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Additional locations
Sicily, the home of the Cosa Nostra, is obvious, but there are various cities and towns on the island that are associated with different families and individuals, notably including Palermo and Monreale, but if I remember correctly, also Messina and Catania. In Naples, there is the Camorra. I'm not sure which Japanese cities are particularly associated with the Yakuza or which cities in China were traditional centers of Triad activity, but one thing we should think about is whether there's actually anything in particular for people to see that's associated with organized crime, because if there isn't, it's not worth mentioning in a travel guide. I know that in New York, there are some restaurants and neighborhoods that are known for mob hits. Someone of morbid curiosity might want to visit them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:14, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I would go with the authentic Prohibition speakeasies in New York City, and perhaps mention the gangsters who were associated with them. In Chicago, I mentioned two locations that were actually frequented by mobsters during the Prohibition era. As a born-and-bred New Yorker, maybe you can elaborate on some of these. But yes, I agree that we should limit these to locations you can visit that had a tangible connection to organised crime. The dog2 (talk) 21:27, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Would the Chinese Boxer rebellion count as organized crime? --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 21:28, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I probably wouldn't list in under organised crime, but Chinese organised crime has a long history in the form of the triads. When I was growing up, Hong Kong gangster movies were hugely popular. In fact, the Oscar-winning film "The Departed" was based on a trilogy of Hong Kong gangster films knowns as "Infernal Affairs" (無間道). The dog2 (talk) 21:35, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I think there was a mob hit in like 1971 or something at Umberto's Clam House in Little Italy. Recently, a capo was assassinated outside his home in Todt Hill, Staten Island. I'm really not someone you should rely upon for specific information of this kind, but it's undoubtedly there to be had if you do a suitable web search. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:54, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Categorize under Crime or e.g. Historical travel?
The article isn't (at least as of now) about how the traveler should deal with organized crime, but about organized crime as a historical attraction along the lines of History of justice. So should it be categorized as part of Crime (itself categorized under Stay safe) as it is now or instead as part of Historical travel or something else? --Ypsilon (talk) 15:18, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I would say it goes under historical travel. The dog2 (talk) 21:36, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Historical travel. But the article says "current," which should be changed, since I don't think we should be advising travelers to visit Mafia-controlled areas. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 21:48, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * It's fine for people to visit areas of Sicily, New York or other places where there is a Mafia presence that is unlikely to affect them. I've previously mentioned the Yakuza. They are nasty and not folks you should want to deal with, but in spite of their existence, Japan is for most purposes an extremely safe country. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:15, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Banner
I don't think this is a good banner. The current banner would be more appropriate maybe for "History of Justice". Perhaps a better banner will be one featuring famous gangsters such as Al Capone. The dog2 (talk) 21:28, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Sure. It was intended to be a joke, but there are probably better ideas out there. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 21:32, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I've got a better one coming soon. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 21:35, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Take a look. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 21:37, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * This new one looks much better. I like it. The dog2 (talk) 21:52, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Race
This article currently is heavy on information about organized crime by race. That is notable, but isn't there other content worth including in the article as well? --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 21:50, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Sure, expand upon it if you know more. But I want to point out that back in the old days, there was no government welfare, or any government programmes to try to help immigrants to assimilate, and governments were in fact discriminatory against people who didn't share the same language or religion. Therefore, immigrants would flock to groups that shared a similar language or culture so they could have some form of social structure to fall back on, and that was how many gangs came about. This was not just in the U.S., but in pretty much every immigrant society including Singapore. Even in the U.S., at least into the 1950s, gangs were largely divided along ethnic lines, with the mafia only consisting of people of Italian heritage, the mob only consisting of people of Irish heritage and so on. The dog2 (talk) 21:56, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Right, I agree that the information should be there. I just don't think it's right for it to dominate the whole article. As long as the article gets developed over time, this is not a problem. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 22:00, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I've tried to write whatever I know. Please just expand if you know more since there's a lot of things I don't know. But to my knowledge, gangs in the U.S. are still very much racially segregated. I've never heard of a white person in the Crips, or a black person in mafia or the Hells Angels. The dog2 (talk) 22:46, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Las Vegas was started by Meyer Lansky, from the Jewish organized crime. That probably bears mention. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:55, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Las Vegas 100% needs to be in the article. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 12:21, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Built-in paradox
I think there might be a built-in paradox in writing a travel guide on organized crime. It is within the nature of the topic, that organized crime are secretive and without a public appearance. Most organized crime is in denial about their activities, which is quite logical if they want to remain organized. Can anyone name a museum that has exhibits specifically pertaining to organized crime? Or is this travel guide going to be without places to visit? Philaweb (talk) 13:50, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

On another note, I was also wondering whether anyone on WV has any real life experience within this subject, or if this entirely is going to be a theoretical travel guide? Philaweb (talk) 13:57, 6 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I searched "museums about organized crime" and found this museum. It probably ought to be included in the article. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 14:23, 6 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Nice catch. Is it worthwhile a visit? Well, perhaps this is just me, but I like to add listings to WV that I find enjoyable wherever I go, which means I have actually been there. I have also visited a lot of places that I do not list on WV simply because I can't recommend the establishment. Philaweb (talk) 15:38, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I searched as in "web search," rather than a physical search. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 16:01, 6 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Not all tourist attractions have to museums about the subject. Here in Chicago, there are several bars and restaurants that are famous because of their historical connections to organised crime, and even today, some of the Italian restaurants here are believed to be run by the Mafia. For instance, there is this jazz bar called the Green Mill that is known for its historical connection to the Mafia, and was a favourite hangout spot for Al Capone. If you are lucky (that is, if you are early enough so nobody sits there first), you can even sit in Al Capone's booth. And the other one I mentioned, the Green Door Tavern had a connection to the Irish Mob, and was associated with one of Al Capone's rivals. Even today, you can go to a secret bar in the basement that was an actual speakeasy during the Prohibtion era, when it would of course have been run by the Irish Mob. I'm pretty sure there would be locations like this in New York City too, where the Mafia also has a huge presence, though I'm just not as familiar with New York City as I am with Chicago. The dog2 (talk) 17:48, 6 August 2019 (UTC)


 * There's also Templeton Reserve rye whiskey, which claims they make their drink to a recipe that was used at Al Capone's speakeasies to the tune of hundreds of truckloads delivered every day from a small Iowan village every day. It's really good, smooth rye, and we could list the village of its origin, even though the story is arguable. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:41, 6 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. Some people would be prone to spend money on what some joint claims to be certain mobsters favorite or whatever. Personally, I prefer the scholarly approach of a museum or it's like, even though it is possible to throw a wedding or a special event in some of their mob settings. That must be a Vegas thing, I guess. Have you by the way visited one of the Chicago mob places that you mentioned or have you just read about them? Philaweb (talk) 22:14, 6 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I've not visited every mob-associated place in Chicago, but I have visited the two that I mentioned. The Green Mill in fact has entrance to tunnels that Al Capone would have used to escape in the event of raid, but unfortunately, the tunnel entrance is located behind the bar and not open to the public. However, you can see it on TV if you watch "Cities of the Underworld" on the History Channel. The dog2 (talk) 22:19, 6 August 2019 (UTC)


 * So, how was the food served, the music, the ambiance of the place? I would never go there myself, but I think some people perhaps would if it's not just some rathole with a history. Philaweb (talk) 22:26, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Here are some online pictures of the place. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 00:55, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

The Green Mill is a jazz bar, so I didn't order any food and the drinks were very ordinary, but I would say it has that kind of 1920s vibe to it, and music that the live band played was good. As for the Green Door Tavern, I don't know about the menu in the regular bar, but if you go to the secret bar in the basement, the finger food is good, and the drinks are very creative. In fact, the drink menu is given to you in the form of tarot cards. There is also a burlesque performance in the secret bar. The only thing is that the entrance to the secret bar is very inconspicuous (that's the point), so you wouldn't find it if you didn't know about it. The dog2 (talk) 03:19, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Was Ned Kelly part of organized crime?
Is Ned_Kelly a good example of organized crime? Sure he is a very famous criminal, and leader of a gang of outlaws, but frankly he was generally opportunistic in his crimes. Organized_crime is usually defined as an enterprise conducting illegal activities, and better fits mafia organizations. Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:27, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I guess this is in a grey area. On that note, would American street gangs like the Bloods and the Crips be considered to be organized crime? The dog2 (talk) 14:59, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Gangs have to be organized, right? --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 19:04, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, and yes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:19, 9 August 2019 (UTC)


 * So anything involving a criminal gang is organized crime? I would suggest the article is basically just about criminal gangs rather organized crime. You can see Wikipedia definition here: Organized_crime.
 * The difference should be clear. A group of criminals can roam around robbing people. That doesn't fit the definition of organized crime. Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:36, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
 * But we're talking about gangs, long-term gangs. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 23:40, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Exactly what SelfieCity said. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:53, 10 August 2019 (UTC)


 * If the Bloods and the Crips are considered to fall under "organized crime", then I'll say Ned Kelly counts too. After all, he was the leader of an organised gang, even if the crimes committed were mostly opportunistic. Ned Kelly's gang would have had some sort of structure and organization for it to have been able to function as effectively as it did. The dog2 (talk) 03:40, 10 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I completely disagree with the notion that criminal gangs mean the same as organized crime, and strongly suggest that you take a look at the corresponding wikipedia article to see why. I guess I'll just leave my observation around the inaccuracy of this article's title here and move on. Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:30, 10 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Let's discuss it more. From Organized crime: Organized crime is a category of transnational, national, or local groupings of highly centralized enterprises run by criminals who intend to engage in illegal activity, most commonly for profit.. From Bloods: Blood membership soon rose dramatically as did the number of states in which they were present. These increases were primarily driven by profits from crack cocaine distribution. The huge profits allowed members to relocate in other cities and states. So why are the Bloods not an organized crime syndicate? Similarly with the Crips: The growth and power of the gang really took off in the early 1980s when crack cocaine hit the streets. In the early 1980s, Crips sets began distributing crack cocaine in Los Angeles. The huge profits from distribution of crack cocaine induced many Crips to establish new markets in other cities and states. As a result, Crip membership grew steadily and by late 1980s it was one of the largest street gangs in the country.[14][15] In 1999, there were at least 600 Crips sets with more than 30,000 members transporting drugs in the United States. Why is that not an organized crime syndicate? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:54, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

He was referring to Ned Kelly. There was no drug trade at that time, and there's no indication of him making any profit. But his gang was well organised enough to have been able to conduct raids and avoid arrest by the police for over two years. The dog2 (talk) 00:21, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not familiar with Ned Kelly. I guess the question is whether we want to restrict ourselves to organizations that worked to profit from crime. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:43, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Title
The article has the purpose of seeking out places known for organized crime as a tourist attraction. The title Organized crime could be misunderstood as advice for how to handle the threat from organized crime, congruent to crime, theft, pickpockets etc. Organized crime tourism or history of organized crime would be more descriptive titles. /Yvwv (talk) 11:42, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I would say your first option in my opinion is better. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:48, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree: Organized crime tourism Ground Zero (talk) 12:24, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Similar to Ned Kelly tourism. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:28, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Medellin / Pablo Escobar
I heard that there used to be an almost theme park like aura around the whole Escobar thing but also that Medellin is trying to distance itself from the reputation of a "narco town". So what's the current situation like? Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:41, 14 July 2021 (UTC)