Talk:Laas Geel

Merge?
"The caves are located about 50 km (31 mi) northeast of Hargeisa"

So why don't we just list this site under "See" for Hargeisa? As What is an article? explains,
 * "We prefer that attractions, sites, and events be included in the article for the place where they're located; see where you can stick it for details....
 * "If an attraction or an event is really famous, and travellers may not know the city or region it is in, then create an article with the attraction name as title, but make it a redirect to the appropriate destination article, and put the actual description of the attraction in the destination article. For example, Taj Mahal redirects to Agra and Burning Man redirects to Black Rock City."

Ground Zero (talk) 13:12, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I guess I oppose as creator, because I think if this were not-in-Somalia, then it'd have it's own article. (E.g. if it were in Thailand or the U.S. it'd have its own hotels, park staff, etc.) So I'd say for the same reason we don't merge Disneyworld into Orlando nor merge Nairobi National Park into Nairobi. And 50km in Somalia != 50km in the West... if you look at the density of articles in Massachusetts, for example, it's hard for me to conceive that proximity is that large of a factor in article creation (or perhaps that's a holdover from the Old Days, I don't know). Brycehughes (talk) 13:31, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * We create separate articles not for status or prestige, but if doing so is what is most useful for readers.
 * If you go to Disneyworld, you may well stay in a hotel at Disneyworld. You will almost certainly eat at Disneyworld. You can shop at Disneyworld. The Disneyworld article has a long one list of points of interest at the site.
 * It you are visiting Laas Geel, you are staying, eating and shopping in Hargeisa. This article has only a couple of paragraphs of information. Putting that information in the Hargeisa article means it will be read by more people, and is more useful for readers. Ground Zero (talk) 13:57, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's true for the most part. Once you leave Hargeisa you are typically out of Hargeisa. You have a 4x4 and a guard. You are probably on a larger tour of Somaliland. That's what I mean by 50km not being equivalent. It's not a day trip, typically, it's a larger venture outside of Hargeisa. And then it's confusing why we wouldn't then merge Nairobi National Park, for example, into Nairobi. I've been to Nairobi National Park – it is very much a day trip. The Somaliland government lacks the capability to implement any more facilities than are there now; there is a weak set of information available on the Internet for sure; but setting prestige aside it's a trip on its own and I'd hate for information/developmental bias to come into play, as it seems to a bit, with Africa. Not saying this is happening here, and I won't lose any sleep if we do merge, though I oppose. Brycehughes (talk) 14:13, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Btw, assuming you read the wp article? "On the rural outskirts of Hargeisa"... that's pretty trash. I was going to change that, and then I didn't bother, because Wikipedia. It's really not on the rural outskirts of Hargeisa. It's half way to Berbera! Brycehughes (talk) 14:21, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikivoyage is driven by what best serves the traveller — The traveller comes first, and not by adherence to rigid consistency. If you want to propose merging Nairobi National Park into Nairobi, you can do do on the article's talk page. The existence of that article is not an argument for keeping this as a separate article. We generally have articles for national parkscwhere there us enough information to warrant it. That doesn't mean every site outside of a city should have its own article. And Hargeisa is not Nairobi.
 * As you wrote: "You can hire a 4x4, a driver, and a guard in Hargeisa." Hargeisa is going to be a logical starting point for many travellers, so it is more useful to travellers to put the information there.
 * Again, this is about organizing the information in the way that is most accessible and useful for travellers. What is the advantage to travellers of having it in a separate article? Ground Zero (talk) 14:50, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ugh, I hate to belabour this, but then wouldn't Berbera be merge-worthy by that logic? Every traveller in Somaliland is going to start out in Hargeisa. You could merge the whole "country" in there. If you're arguing, rather, that it's matter of tourist infrastructure, then sure – I well know I'm not going to win any appeal here – I'd say merge it to both Hargeisa and Berbera both – it's literally half way. No, I don't want to merge Nairboi National Park into Nairobi (that was my point and you know that), and I think the wp-style let's not appeal to precedent but rather only civil-style policy is mistaken. Brycehughes (talk) 15:08, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Berbera has places to eat and stay and shop. Laas Geel doesn't. I think it would be helpful for you to review What is an article? to understand Wikivoyage's approach, which is different from Wikipedia's. I'm going on that basis. I have also posted in Requests for Comment to get other opinions. Ground Zero (talk) 15:20, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Wait, I already screamed uncle. Let's merge it. I mean, yes, I do think there's a massive Africa-bias where they don't get their attractions, etc., written about due to lack of information, infrastructure, etc. But whatever, I'm not going to die on this hill! (And I will most certainly die ha) So, let's merge it. I have read what-is-an-article, I never argued that we should be like Wikipedia, and I would really appreciate it if you'd stop hitting me with stuff like that, it comes across as a bit patronising (although I'm sure you're not meaning to be). Brycehughes (talk) 15:31, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I do not mean to patronise you. Your contributions to Wikivoyage have been really valuable, especially with regard to addressing the lack of Africa content, and that's why I have been supporting your contributions. I also supported the Nigeria Expedition, including presenting to a Wikimedia seminar in Lagos by Zoom. For this article, though, I think that it is not consistnet with Wikivoyage policy, and I support that policy. The problem with ignoring the policy in a case like this, is that tit will be cited by others as an example for ignoring the policy in other cases. If anyone thinks that the policy is wrong, they should propose changes to it, rather than arguing to ignore it. I don't think it is wrong. Although I know you only from a few brief intereactions on Wikivoyage, I also don't want you to die, on a metaphorical hill or otherwise. I'm looking forward to your future contributions and new aticles. Ground Zero (talk) 15:51, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Mate it's fine, I was going to lose anyway, but you didn't have to call in the dogs. Brycehughes (talk) 16:01, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I asked for the views of other editors because I did not want to impose my opinion on this discussion. If other editors agreed with you, I would have accepted the result and withdrawn the merger proposal. Ground Zero (talk) 16:18, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * You are beyond smart enough to know that power dynamics are a thing here. Brycehughes (talk) 16:21, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I've been editing here for more than 7 years. In my experience, longtime editors argue on the basis of policy, not on loyalty to other editors. I don't expect other editors to support me when I'm wrong. I win some arguments here, and I lose others. I can assure you that Pashley and I have disagreed often. Also, is a comment from one other editor an example of "calling in the dogs" or "power dynamics"? I think that is an overstatement. Contributors to a crowd-sourced project have to accept the views of other editors, whether expressed through policy or in discussions. I don't mean that to sound patronising, but I think this is the root of the disagreement here. Ground Zero (talk) 16:32, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * What I think is that I don't give a shit about this article and Ground Zero now you sound like a fucking robot. Go back to normal would you, I love that guy. Brycehughes (talk) 16:51, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to de-escalate this because you are a great contributor. I don't want to fall out with you. I don't seem to be doing a good job of dialling things down, though, and for that I am sorry. Ground Zero (talk) 16:56, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ground Zero That was meant to be a joke. Sorry if I offended, was not intended. Let's end this. Brycehughes (talk) 17:02, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I missed the joke. Thanks for letting me know. No ill-will here. No need to delete. I can merge it in tomorrow. Ground Zero (talk) 17:08, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The joke was essentially you can be as robotic as you are charming. If you don't know that about yourself, well, that's what is observed. Granted you are very charming. And robotic. And you should live with some fun at your expense! We all look up to you, I promise you. Brycehughes (talk) 17:13, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Robotic and charming? Just because you and my husband say the same thing about me doesn't mean that you are both right about it. ;-) Ground Zero (talk) 17:36, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Haha let's now chat with your husband, that would be fun. Anyway merge and kill, merge and kill. I'm not going to do the work, because I still oppose. Brycehughes (talk) 17:58, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ground Zero If you delete the page, throw it into my user space and I can merge tomorrow or whenever. Brycehughes (talk) 17:05, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This is the internet, my friend – where everything that's a joke or satire must end in a /s. Why do both of you sound like a "fucking robot" by omitting the /s tags?!? /s. -- SHB2000  (talk &#124; contribs &#124; meta) 20:35, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Haha what tab am I on again? /s Brycehughes (talk) 02:29, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Looks like merge & redirect to me. Pashley (talk) 15:24, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I surrender! Brycehughes (talk) 15:40, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this looks like a great attraction, but insufficient content for its own article. I'd suggest putting it in an "Outside of town" section in the Hargeisa guide. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:07, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Merging is fine, I've surrendered this, but a lot of stuff in Africa could be deemed insufficient due to lack of infrastructure. Our coverage of Africa is shameful – compare our density of coverage in England to virtually any country on the African continent for example. It's a policy debate, I guess, and not one I'm willing to plunge in to now. But it is a shame. Brycehughes (talk) 03:04, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not asking for information to be subtracted, just moved to a different article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:09, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I have moved all of the information to the Hargeisa article. Ground Zero (talk) 15:43, 19 November 2023 (UTC)


 * See also Africa Expedition. Pashley (talk) 19:57, 19 November 2023 (UTC)