Talk:Jakarta/Archive 2005-2020

Current discussions go in Talk:Jakarta

NPOV

 * Quite frankly, Jakarta is not an attractive city: a sweltering, steaming, heaving mass of people packed into a vast urban sprawl, the contrast between the obscene wealth of Indonesia's elite and the appalling poverty of the urban poor is incredible, with tinted-window BMWs turning left at the Gucci shop into muddy lanes full of begging street children and corrugated iron shacks. The city's traffic is in perpetual gridlock, its polluted air is matched only by the smells of burning garbage and open sewers, and safety is a concern especially at night.  There are few sights to speak of and most visitors transit as quickly as possible.

Hmm I think this sentence has to be rephrased. It doesn't sound as a NPOV statement. (WT-en) Meursault2004 15:36, 5 Jun 2005 (EDT)


 * Take a look at Project:Neutral point of view, particularly the bit about calling a spade a spade. What part of the above statement is factually wrong in your opinion?  Jakarta is a shithole for 98% of its inhabitants, it certainly looks like one, and it has very little to draw the average tourist (what, Monas?).  (WT-en) Jpatokal 20:09, 5 Jun 2005 (EDT)

Nothing is factually wrong in my opinion. I am just objecting the use of words such as obscene wealth and appalling poverty. Unless you are going to do something about it, I think these words should be somewhat altered. Furthermore look at this sentence:
 * its polluted air is matched only by the smells of burning garbage and open sewers, and safety is a concern especially at night.

Well, I acknowledge that there are parts of Jakarta which are not nice after all, but this doesn't do justice to the reality. It may also sounds offensive for the Jakartans as well. As for safety, it can be quite hazardous in Jakarta to be on night on your own, especially when you are a foreign tourist just as well in any other bigger cities in the world. But on the other hand, Jakarta is actually quite safe, especially if one compares it to other metropolitan regions of the world, such as New York City, LA, São Paulo and maybe even Paris. (WT-en) Meursault2004 04:19, 6 Jun 2005 (EDT)


 * Ah, I note from your user page that you are Indonesian? Ma'afkan for my words then, but I'm afraid that the average tourist's initial reaction to Jakarta is going to be rather close to mine...  and Wikivoyage is not written for Jakartans, it's written for visitors.


 * Now, if you object to a particular turn of phrase, you're welcome to change it. However, you must admit that the gap between rich and poor in Jakarta is huge; the entire city does have a peculiar smell, major components of which are kretek, exhaust, burning garbage and sewage in the canals; and among South-East Asia's capitals I suspect only Manila is worse in terms of personal security. If you want to promote Jakarta, please do so by outlining the positives, not whitewashing the negatives... (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:39, 6 Jun 2005 (EDT)

There is no need for any apology but it is nice anyway, thank you :) And indeed I am a wikipedian, so please also do forgive me my style or my faux pas, although I have been around here for more than a year :) I think overall the article is quite okay. So at this moment I can't think of something to add, maybe later. And I promise not to whitewash the negatives... :) I realise a visitor would react differently than an inhabitant. Frankly I think Surabaya is dirtier than Jakarta. Many parts of this latter city is not attractive either. (WT-en) Meursault2004 05:03, 6 Jun 2005 (EDT)


 * I'm an American who has visited Jakarta on several occasions. I would say the choice of words in some parts of the article are not good at all. I don't see anything on the NYC/Manhattan page mentioning that the entire island smells like disgusting sewage during the summer. That's because it's not relevant to the article. 24.124.61.165 02:24, 11 Aug 2005 (EDT)


 * So you're saying it's not relevant if the place literally stinks? The pollution is so bad that I get headaches and black crap in my nose whenever I visit Jakarta...


 * And if NYC/Manhattan really smells like sewage in the summer, then please go ahead and note that! Can't say I remember noticing that during my NYC days though &mdash; sure, the city has a distinctive funk, but raw sewage it ain't. (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:01, 11 Aug 2005 (EDT)

I'd just like to say that the overt "frankness" of this article is spot on. I lived in Jakarta for 2 years and if anything it's not covering enough. I believe there should be more information about the rampant corruption of air port officials and police that one may have to deal with. As for the "smell" my wife is a native and as we were driving the other day (in the USA) she mentioned that the air smelled like Jakarta. She had no idea that we were next to a sewage treatment facility at the time. I think that pretty much sums it up. Keep up the good work... —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Filoviridae (talk • contribs)

I do believe that the words used in the initial text are a bit too strong...Yes there is a peculiar smell in Jakarta yet we aren't dead so far..Money has a strange smell too, yet we handle it each single day..Just to say that smells are very subjective. Now, you called Jakarta a 'shithole', i guess we can say that too of L.A for example where i havent seen so many beggars/homeless people (real ones) ever in my life...Also, i think that your comment regarding the obscene wealth and appalling poverty you think you saw aren't 100% true because you ought to know that most of the people living in cardboard homes are squatting land that doesnt belong to them so whats the need for them to 'invest' in hard wood? Yes, there is a huge problem of corruption in Indonesia, from bottom to top, but in Western countries it exists too..Well pals, there is no perfect place on earth, just to have to deal with whats available and if you dont like it, dont come to visit! —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 202.155.9.83 (talk • contribs)

J, you only live in Jakarta for 1.5 year, and I do believe you fall into the sewer all the time when you're at it. So I'm going to change the wording and yes, I've been to NYC also - it's practically the same shit hole + RATS. So I'm changing the wording. Living in it about 21 year I dare say I know best. Don't you? (WT-en) Serenity 00:30, 28 August 2007 (EDT)


 * First, Wikivoyage doesn't have "NPOV", the philosophy here is be fair. This is a travel guide and it's meant for people who are visiting for a few days, not living there for 1.5 years, much less 21 years.    If you think New York is "practically the same shit hole", you're welcome to try and argue your viewpoint at Talk:New York City &mdash; but please tell me where in NYC I can see this. (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:29, 28 August 2007 (EDT)

A ha ha... that picture is not exactly tourist destination for a few days right? Man, that view is NOTHING compare to the gunshot I heard at 4:00 am in the morning in Manhattan while waiting for the airport pickup to JFK. Although do not have NPOV, every open source is based on a good will, not trashing one another-. I never heard about big durian, what is your references? - that was made by Singaporean (plus they have the monument out of it I think). (WT-en) Serenity 03:00, 28 August 2007 (EDT)


 * In general I have to admit, that the general tone has improved in the past 3 years or so. I have to read it again. (WT-en) Meursault2004 04:35, 28 August 2007 (EDT)

J, I think we miss what is important here. As per what to look for when visitors arriving in the airport; i.e. what taxi to choose, airport info, hotel info. I will help BUT if you continue trashing like that - which in my opinion - is not half as important on what I am about to write. I don't see why I should help you or others who share your opinion.

Your call, I will wait three days, if it is reverted back exactly as it is, or if you think your ego is much more important than information sharing in good will. Have it your way. (WT-en) Serenity 06:22, 28 August 2007 (EDT)


 * What does my ego have to do with this? I just think you're wrong, and you're doing travellers a disservice by making Jakarta sound safe and pleasant when it's not.  Point by point:


 * Aside from the golden triangle (Sudirman, Thamrin, and Kota) where traffic rules are highly enforced, there are usually street children and beggars in every street corner.


 * There are plenty of street children, beggars, joki etc in the Golden Triangle. I've been hassled in Mega Kuningan, on Thamrin, at Monas, etc.


 * Although many of the traffic caused by the Jakarta's non-stop development (either side road cable dig, building renovations, etc), but most often than not the city's traffic is pretty bad.


 * I used to commute from Kalideres to Mega Kuningan daily. I don't think I've ever seen any construction work on the stretch (this was before they built the busway along it), my driver knew all the jalan tikus to take to go as fast as possible and avoid the chokepoints (eg. Ciputra intersection), and it was still setiap hari macet terus.


 * For some people who use to live a high standard life, safety is a concern especially at night, but for others it's just an everyday life where sometimes bad things happened to you.


 * This guide is for tourists who "live a high standard life", and us bule are magnets for criminals. I've had friends robbed in broad daylight on Thamrin's overpasses etc, and this just doesn't happen in, say, Bangkok or Kuala Lumpur.


 * Again, I spent a long time in Jakarta, I learned to deal with it and now I know the people, the places to go, the places not to go, etc and I look forward to visiting it. But most visitors hate Jakarta the first time they go, and a guidebook's job is to prepare them for the shock and tell them how to get over it. (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:02, 28 August 2007 (EDT)


 * I support Jani's thinking on this issue. I, as a traveler, would be very upset with Wikivoyage if we ever resorted to NPOV and never described a place as it really was. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 21:43, 28 August 2007 (EDT)

I'm new and I'm not done yet. Let me finish and I take his argumentation one by one. (WT-en) Serenity 21:51, 28 August 2007 (EDT)


 * Take your time, but I need to remove your duplication of information. Click on this link - Talk:Jakarta. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 21:52, 28 August 2007 (EDT)

It's not copy edit, if you 'READ you may notice that I add things and update. (WT-en) Serenity 21:53, 28 August 2007 (EDT)

How am I update things if you keep reverting it back? What happend with take my time? (WT-en) Serenity 21:55, 28 August 2007 (EDT)


 * Look at the bottom of this page. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 21:59, 28 August 2007 (EDT)

Nope, you'll have to wait. You said to take my time, if I'm done - you can revert all you want (WT-en) Serenity 22:05, 28 August 2007 (EDT)


 * Will do, then. However, if you read the tips on your talk page and at the bottom of this page I and anyone else are far less likely to revert all the work you've done. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 22:07, 28 August 2007 (EDT)

Are you suggesting that I stop now? I already noted mistakes after mistakes on information (if not talk-trashin') (WT-en) Serenity 22:27, 28 August 2007 (EDT)


 * "Information" aside, the structure of what you are writing is all wrong. This is not Wikipedia, please follow the Project:Huge city article template. (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:41, 28 August 2007 (EDT)


 * Huh? huh?
 * I'm done (up to on foot), mind the minor details I add when you're reverting back. Have to work first before answering the long reply up there - see you later or not - your call (WT-en) Serenity 22:53, 28 August 2007 (EDT)

Price Bracket
Is there any standard about fare on hotels and restaurants? What is the maximum fare for budget hotel and restarurants? What is the maximum and minimum fare for midrange hotel and restaurants? Should the contributor quote official hotel fare (rack price) or discounted hotel fare? Should the contributor use US$ or Rupiah? What about hotels with 2 standard fare, one for foreign tourist, and the other for domestic tourist/KITAS holder?


 * See Project:Accommodation listings for the policy guideline. "Budget" fares vary by location, and we don't really have a single standard since a budget hotel in Jakarta will be cheaper than (for example) a budget hotel in San Francisco.  Usually it's left up to local discretion, although the Singapore article has defined some specific guidelines for "Eat" listings, so something similar could be done for Jakarta.  And quote the prices that travelers can find - if the official rate is 50 Rupiah but a fare can be found online for 30 Rupiah, say something like "Offical rates are 50 Rupiah, but online rates can be as low as 30 Rupiah".  Similarly, if a hotel has two rates, go ahead and say so.  Nice job with this article, by the way! -- (WT-en) Ryan 13:37, 26 August 2006 (EDT)


 * My suggestion for hotels: Budget below US$ 20 (including tax), Mid-range from US$ 21 to US$ 100. In Rupiah: Budget below Rp 200000 (including tax), Mid-range from Rp 200001 to Rp 1 Million.

Unannotated Lists
Unannotated lists of pool bars, karaoke joints, nightclubs etc are useless and will be reverted. Please provide commentary on atmosphere, price level, etc so travellers can make a decision on whether they're worth going to. (WT-en) Jpatokal 15:09, 7 September 2006 (EDT)
 * Unannotated lists of Hotel, Restaurant, Museum, Cultural Centres, etc should also be removed! :(


 * That's correct, and they will be. This is not a phonebook. (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:56, 8 September 2006 (EDT)
 * I will receive help from IHRA, ASITA, KADIN next week. Please REVERT BACK ALL CHANGES ASAP. I hope ALL MEMBERS of IHRA, ASITA, KADIN etc will put informations to this page.


 * Changes reverted as requested. =) But seriously, we are not going to list every single karaoke joint and duty free shop in Jakarta here. See Project:Goals and non-goals number 7:


 * Produce a Yellow Pages of restaurants, hotels, or bars for a city. City guides should certainly include information for travel-related companies, but these should be kept at a useful number. Think of a friend from out of town asking you where they should go -- you wouldn't list all 200 possibilities, but 5-10 options for a particular type, budget, or part of town.


 * So please pick the good ones: 5-10, no more. (WT-en) Jpatokal 16:23, 8 September 2006 (EDT)


 * This rule is too restrictive. How do you expect that a large city with more than 5 millions of people have only 5 or 10 good bars, restaurants, hotels etc? Population (within city limits): Shanghai (14,608,512) Mumbai,12,691,836, Karachi (11,624,219), Buenos Aires (11,574,205), Delhi (10,927,986), Manila (10,444,527), Moscow (10,381,222), Seoul (10,349,312), Sao Paulo (10,21,295), Istanbul (9,792,428), Lagos (8,789,120), Mexico City (8,657,50), Jakarta	(8,540,121) etc. What about large number of high class restaurants, hotels in London, Paris, Swiss etc? IMO the number should be up to 10 in a small city (less than 1 million people), up to 50 in medium size city (up to 5 millions people), and 100 in larger cities. HOW the business association/owners CAN HELP, if their business IS NOT ON THE LIST? How do they choose 5 members from more than 100 members? A better rule: If the business owners does not provide the information within 3 months, their data will be deleted. Now PLEASE put the list back on the page.


 * Wikivoyage is a guide for travellers, not business associations. If you really can write 100 useful reviews of restaurants, hotels etc in Jakarta, then please go ahead, but it doesn't help the traveller much to just have a list. (WT-en) Jpatokal 05:30, 9 September 2006 (EDT)


 * So, it seems to me that Jakarta is too big to have only one page. Isn't it time we expanded to some districts for this very large city? --(WT-en) Evan 16:26, 8 September 2006 (EDT)


 * It's a huge city already, but I'm not sure it warrants districting from a tourist's point of view -- there's not just that much there. That said, splitting it up would be easy enough, we can just use the city's official central/NEWS divisions. (WT-en) Jpatokal 16:34, 8 September 2006 (EDT)

Status Quo
Please keep the unannotated listing AS IS for 5 working days. Give the ASITA, IHRA, KADIN etc members to put the informations to this page. DO NOT REVERT IT!


 * As you wish -- so Wednesday the 13th it is. Although, if these organizations are all businesses promoting themselves, I doubt their descriptions will be very useful... (WT-en) Jpatokal 05:57, 9 September 2006 (EDT)


 * I had received some incomplete data, but I must type it myself. It will take several additional days to enter the data.

I will split the lists into 5 districts and limit the unannotated entries into 5 entries for every district.

Bycel Bar List
I had received a permission from Mr Kidley to use information from:

http://www.bycel.com/Indonesia/Indon_Jkt_pubs_and_clubs.htm

Is there any other free, non commercial review about bars in Jakarta?

Yellow Pages
This "Wait five business days" has run amuck! I, the traveller, don't want 40 options for budget eating in Jakarta. Give me 10 options, possibly 15, and tell me which restaurants I want to go to. Don't give me a page from Jakarta Yellow Page Book. I'm very tempted to indiscriminately delete a bunch of listings. -- (WT-en) Sapphire 15:39, 15 September 2006 (EDT)
 * I will separate the restaurant into different taste/style. In Jakarta the traffic jam is so bad, people prefer to order their food from restaurants using courier. If you go to restaurant on different district, it may take more than one hour to reach the restaurant.
 * Thank you. If it's possible please seperate Jatkarta into the huge city template. -- (WT-en) Sapphire 03:07, 16 September 2006 (EDT)
 * If you can create the pages, I will move the data.

Creating district pages
How about (basically copied from WikiPedia:Jakarta):
 * Jakarta/Central (Jakarta Pusat)
 * Jakarta/East (Jakarta Timur)
 * Jakarta/North (Jakarta Utara)
 * Jakarta/South (Jakarta Selatan)
 * Jakarta/West (Jakarta Barat)


 * Yes, this is both obvious and OK. (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:13, 16 September 2006 (EDT)
 * Finished moving data to South Jakarta and Central Jakarta. Sadly PHRI members in East Jakarta are uncooperative. I will have to collect the data myself.
 * Thank you for creating these districts and moving all the info from Jakarta to the respective districts. This makes the article so much more practical and useful. -- (WT-en) Sapphire 22:56, 18 September 2006 (EDT)

Unannotated Lists
Swept in from the pub — (WT-en) Hypatia 01:17, 13 October 2006 (EDT)

There is a strange rule: "Unannotated lists of pool bars, karaoke joints, nightclubs etc are useless and will be reverted." Therefore all Unannotated list of Hotel, Restarurant, Cultural and Sports Centres, Taxis, Car Rentals etc should also be removed. Is this true?


 * If you mean your encylopedic lists of places in Jakarta, then yes it's true. The goal here is to write a travel guide.  A travel guide needs some listings.  A travel guide is not a phone book containing all listings.  Once sufficient base level of unannotated listings have been added, it is unhelpful to add any more listings which do not contain descriptive text. -- (WT-en) Colin 00:03, 8 September 2006 (EDT)


 * There is some necessary selectivity to a travel guide that you don't get in a city guide. I don't think there's a Jakarta Open Guide yet, but there probably should be, and that's where comprehensive listings should go. --(WT-en) Evan 05:20, 8 September 2006 (EDT)
 * Is there any rule about the ratio between Unannotated entries and annotated entries? How long will unannotated entries remain on the website? I will receive help from IHRA, ASITA, KADIN etc next week. I hope ALL MEMBERS of IHRA, ASITA, KADIN etc will put informations on the wikivoyage page.


 * See Project:Goals and non-goals number 7:


 * Produce a Yellow Pages of restaurants, hotels, or bars for a city. City guides should certainly include information for travel-related companies, but these should be kept at a useful number. Think of a friend from out of town asking you where they should go -- you wouldn't list all 200 possibilities, but 5-10 options for a particular type, budget, or part of town.


 * So please pick the good ones: 5-10, no more. (WT-en) Jpatokal 16:23, 8 September 2006 (EDT)


 * This rule is too restrictive. How do you expect that a large city with more than 5 millions of people have only 5 or 10 good bars, restaurants, hotels etc? Population (within city limits): Shanghai (14,608,512) Mumbai,12,691,836, Karachi (11,624,219), Buenos Aires (11,574,205), Delhi (10,927,986), Manila (10,444,527), Moscow (10,381,222), Seoul (10,349,312), Sao Paulo (10,21,295), Istanbul (9,792,428), Lagos (8,789,120), Mexico City (8,657,50), Jakarta	(8,540,121) etc. What about large number of high class restaurants, hotels in London, Paris, Swiss etc? IMO the number should be up to 10 in a small city (less than 1 million people), up to 50 in medium size city (up to 5 millions people), and 100 in larger cities. HOW the business association/owners CAN HELP, if their business IS NOT ON THE LIST? How do they choose 5 members from more than 100 members? A better rule: If the business owners does not provide the information within 3 months, their data will be deleted.
 * No, you're kind of wrong. A city of five million normally should be broken down into several districts.  Districts guide articles are the place where restaurants, hotels, and fine grained information belongs.  See - Project:Huge city article template and Project:District article template.  I have very little knowledge about Jakarta, but shouldn't it be broken down into districts, unless all five million people are squeezed into a very small (and cramped) quarter. -- (WT-en) Sapphire 01:10, 9 September 2006 (EDT)
 * The population density of Jakarta (June 2006): 11360 people/square km. In central Jakarta district, the population density is 18292 people/square km.
 * Ai, nevermind about dividing up the city into districts if it would hinder the traveller, because we have to remember the Project:The traveller comes first and that's the same reason why we don't list all 4,000 restaurants in Jakarta on a single page. I sure wouldn't bother using a guide if I had to pick from 4,000 restaurants to eat at.  I might as well get a phone book and pick something at random.  From my point of view having no more than 10 restaurants in under each section of the "Eat" header is great because it makes my life, the traveller's, so much easier. -- (WT-en) Sapphire 01:18, 9 September 2006 (EDT)


 * I agree that unannotated lists are useless and we should concentrate on listing and describing the few places a traveller would need to know about. However, I consider the suggested 5-10 rule much too restrictive. e.g. For Zhuhai, a city of 1.5 million or so, we list half a dozen Chinese places, the one Indian one, a couple of Thai, a couple of pizza places, some other Western ones, total about 15 restaurants. To improve this, we'd add more places, bring it up to 25 or so to give the traveller a better choice. Knocking it down to 5-10 would be silly. On the other hand, we don't list all 6 or 8 Thai places in town, just two good ones with convenient locations, and we don't even consider trying to list all 2,000 or so Chinese places. This is as it should be. (WT-en) Pashley 03:25, 9 September 2006 (EDT)


 * It's not 5-10 total, it's 5-10 for a particular type, budget, or part of town. So Jakarta or Zhuhai, undistricted, could support about 30, with 10 each in Budget/Mid-range/Splurge. (WT-en) Jpatokal 05:33, 9 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Don't forget suburbs around Jakarta: Depok, Tangerang, Bekasi etc. Please keep the listing as STATUS QUO for 5 days. Give time for ASITA, IHRA, KADIN etc members to give informations about their business.


 * Depok, Tangerang, Bekasi etc already have their own articles. (WT-en) Jpatokal 06:17, 9 September 2006 (EDT)

Copyedit/revert
Serenity,

I just reverted about everything you wrote, except the tidbit about the rain season and the road to the airport. The information you wrote is already in the article and was not formatted in the way we format Wikivoyage articles. Also, please don't write "UNDER CONSTRUCTION" in the article. This is a wiki – the entire site is under construction so need to make sure we know. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 21:46, 28 August 2007 (EDT)


 * Ok, so I understand you're new. So please be sure to read - Project:Graffiti Wall (practice your editing skills), Project:The traveller comes first (very important), Project:How to edit a page (reading this will help you), Project:Wiki markup, and Project:Huge city article template. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 21:59, 28 August 2007 (EDT)


 * The last of these is important. Every article on Wikivoyage is structured in precisely the same way, so please don't change the headers or their order. (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:29, 28 August 2007 (EDT)


 * Yet I do believe you shouldn't be too hard on Serenity as she tries to give new information and add pictures about Jakarta. Perhaps it's best to give her a chance first. I won't take that long I think. (WT-en) Meursault2004 04:17, 29 August 2007 (EDT)


 * New information and pictures are always welcome, but she's also spent a lot of time messing with the structure, which is just a waste of time for everybody... but I'll be away for the next few days anyway, so enjoy aja. (WT-en) Jpatokal 05:05, 29 August 2007 (EDT)

Trash talk unfactual (a.k.a NPOV - revisited)

 * I'm an American who has visited Jakarta on several occasions. I would say the choice of words in some parts of the article are not good at all. I don't see anything on the NYC/Manhattan page mentioning that the entire island smells like disgusting sewage during the summer. That's because it's not relevant to the article. 24.124.61.165 02:24, 11 Aug 2005 (EDT)


 * I do believe that the words used in the initial text are a bit too strong...Yes there is a peculiar smell in Jakarta yet we aren't dead so far..Money has a strange smell too, yet we handle it each single day..Just to say that smells are very subjective. Now, you called Jakarta a 'shithole', i guess we can say that too of L.A for example where i havent seen so many beggars/homeless people (real ones) ever in my life...Also, i think that your comment regarding the obscene wealth and appalling poverty you think you saw aren't 100% true because you ought to know that most of the people living in cardboard homes are squatting land that doesnt belong to them so whats the need for them to 'invest' in hard wood? Yes, there is a huge problem of corruption in Indonesia, from bottom to top, but in Western countries it exists too..Well pals, there is no perfect place on earth, just to have to deal with whats available and if you dont like it, dont come to visit! —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 202.155.9.83 (talk • contribs)


 * J, you only live in Jakarta for 1.5 year, and I do believe you fall into the sewer all the time when you're at it. So I'm going to change the wording and yes, I've been to NYC also - it's practically the same shit hole + RATS. So I'm changing the wording. Living in it about 21 year I dare say I know best. Don't you? (WT-en) Serenity 00:30, 28 August 2007 (EDT)


 * Aside from the golden triangle (Sudirman, Thamrin, and Kota) where traffic rules are highly enforced, there are usually street children and beggars in every street corner.


 * There are plenty of street children, beggars, joki etc in the Golden Triangle. I've been hassled in Mega Kuningan, on Thamrin, at Monas, etc.


 * OK, I can reword it to: aside from Sudirman Thamrin.
 * Monas where? Monas main road connecting to Thamrin? or connecting to the other road say vice president palace? These place is swamped with police force during rush hour. I think you're wrong why? Simple physics two objects can not be in the same place at the same time. Police force and your "hassle" ments are both looking for money in a different way, so they can't be seen altogether.


 * No, Monas the monument itself. Just walking from the parking lot to the tower means getting hassled by every postcard-selling anak jalan, English conversation scammer, horse ride hawker etc in the square. (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:19, 3 September 2007 (EDT)


 * Although many of the traffic caused by the Jakarta's non-stop development (either side road cable dig, building renovations, etc), but most often than not the city's traffic is pretty bad.


 * I used to commute from Kalideres to Mega Kuningan daily. I don't think I've ever seen any construction work on the stretch (this was before they built the busway along it), my driver knew all the jalan tikus to take to go as fast as possible and avoid the chokepoints (eg. Ciputra intersection), and it was still setiap hari macet terus.


 * Macet, correct. But never seen any development? Babe, when the last time you've checked Jakarta news? It's been non-stop development even Hotel Indonesia is being heavily rebuild to Grand Indonesia by Kempinski. Not to mention "little developments" as cable digs, special ceremony or a simple protest - this add up to the heavy traffic. Are you sooo narrow-sighted that what you think matters will be factual that you overlooked the real fact?


 * Mbak, Jakarta is congested because there are too many cars and the public transportation is terrible. (The busway is a very good start, but it's not nearly enough for a city the size of Jakarta.) (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:19, 3 September 2007 (EDT)


 * For some people who use to live a high standard life, safety is a concern especially at night, but for others it's just an everyday life where sometimes bad things happened to you.


 * This guide is for tourists who "live a high standard life", and us bule are magnets for criminals. I've had friends robbed in broad daylight on Thamrin's overpasses etc, and this just doesn't happen in, say, Bangkok or Kuala Lumpur.


 * If this is for people who "live a high standard life" then what are you doing here?
 * When I told my sisters what you wrote, my first sister thought you live in Pecenongan
 * My second sister think that your mouth is too close too your nose that you smell stink all the time...
 * Gosh I wish she was into writing
 * Note that the price of driver wage monthy is around USD 110 per month now, I don't know how much you paid your driver, what? three years ago? USD 70? That doesn't make you "living a high standard live". Beside wiki travel are supppose to be for everyone who need the information...right? Or am I wrong here?
 * Bule is not magnet to criminals - that is where you're wrong. Bule look outstanding within the crowds because you're white - while we are not. Criminals hit everyone, I have friends who'd been victims too or myself - and we are not bule. Your comparison are stink and it is wrong. Bangkok or Kuala Lumpur? How many people lived there compares to Jakarta? You should compare us to New York when it comes to criminal rates.


 * Bangkok's population is roughly the same as Jakarta's. You know as well as I do that there are no accurate crime stats available for Jakarta.   And criminals are not stupid &mdash; of course they prefer rich bules to poor locals. (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:19, 3 September 2007 (EDT)


 * Again, I spent a long time in Jakarta, I learned to deal with it and now I know the people, the places to go, the places not to go, etc and I look forward to visiting it. But most visitors hate Jakarta the first time they go, and a guidebook's job is to prepare them for the shock and tell them how to get over it. (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:02, 28 August 2007 (EDT)


 * Oh please, with all do respect - don't (and I don't have much one right now (respect) that I've seen you talk trashing about Jakarta - I should have make my own wiki music and punching you in Taipei instead of shake your hand if I know you wrote so bad).
 * If informing is your job - then you shouldn't be trash talking now do you? You should be careful on your word and make it funny and interesting -- not pushing away potential contributors like mersault and I away because not only you're being offending - worse - you're not factual. If I say "You're ugly Jani" - that would be factual, but we both know that it is not necessary.
 * I will send you a shirt instead that say: " I trash-talking about Jakarta in wiki travel and tell people not to come " - bilingual! Bahasa Indonesia - Inggris. Stay where ever you are and avoid the border line. We have joke in Jakarta that the smoke look so dark - SARS and other deseases from other country won't stand a chance in here. And we love it. It's our city. This is where the finest and the worst live. (WT-en) Serenity 21:35, 29 August 2007 (EDT)


 * So should we put your joke on Wikivoyage? (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:19, 3 September 2007 (EDT)


 * I'm German, I visited Jakarta several years ago. OK Bali was better, but Jakarta was not too bad, pretty good though. There were traffics, but it is normal for a city with more then 10 mio population. Polution? yeaahh.. but Jakarta has many great mall where we can buy anything there, so you dont need to go outside so many times. Criminal? the important thing, dont go show off with your jewelry, thats commons every where.
 * My opinion: if you like a place you visited, write an article about it, but if you dont like, just dont write...
 * Sorry for my bad English.--149.216.91.137 08:02, 3 September 2007 (EDT)


 * For the third time: I like Jakarta. (If you want to see what I write about places I don't like, try Poipet.)  But there are many bad things about it, which we have to warn visitors about, and finding the good things is hard, which is why I've spent a lot of time writing up my favorite restaurants, bars, shops etc so people can find them.


 * But you tell me: if a visitor has one week in Indonesia, should they spend it in Jakarta or, say, Bali or Yogya or Manado or Lombok or Tana Toraja or...? (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:19, 3 September 2007 (EDT)

MM I don't know who do you know, how did you getting around in Jakarta, and who helped you in writing about Jakarta. You have not doing your homework properly before you write. You didn't mentioned a single "best" restaurant neither a place to hang-out in Jakarta. You need to do more research and getting know more Jakartans who know how to have fun and enjoy good foods. I am not a professor and not even a good writer but I can see that you are writing a bias and a subjective review about Jakarta. I am Jakartans and grew up in Jakarta. I mingled with the poor and the riches so I know Jakarta. Your knowledge about Jakarta is not bad but surely inadequate to write this article. I am here not to argue with you. Just a simple suggestion. You are writing something permanent here, you can't biasing. Do not count your own opinion only. People read this article because they want to know an objective information about Jakarta and not your personal opinion. Before you write, have you check with other travelers and asked their opinion before making your conclusion as you did? You are writing an article that can be view by billions..so be "a real/professional writer" or not at all. Thanks to you! After reading your article, now I understand why wiki-...is not an acceptable source for a citation in a research paper. I know the information about Jakarta that you wrote here is not accurate and reliable. Please...being a little thoughtful. Many have worked hard in making wiki-.. become a very helpful and reliable source of information. I used wiki-... a lot, don't ruined it. "Hope you will write a better article in the future". Peace, 67.80.100.42 00:20, 18 August 2011 (EDT)

Ojeks
Unsigned commentary from the main Jakarta page:

''Suggested change

If you are in a hurry, you may want to go on one of Jakarta's motorcycle taxis (ojek). Jakarta's ojek services consist of guys with bikes lounging around street corners, who usually shuttle short distances down alleys and roads but will also do longer trips for a price.

Comment 1 - Delete 'youre willing to lose a limb' - this is unfair - ojeks are especially handy in travelling through the gangs (laneways) or jalan tikus - literally mouse roads - or small side streets.

Comment 2 - Delete - Haggle furiously - This plays upon the typical expat notion that every local is just out to get you which is unfair.

Comment 2 Comment 1: The locals are out to get you. You're probably a local if you're saying they aren't''

Anyway, my views are that ojeks are very dangerous (Jak Post: There were 1128 fatalities of traffic accidents in Jakarta in 2006 and 857 of those were motorcycle-related.) and that, because there are no meters, you need to agree on the fare in advance. Tweaked accordingly. (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:53, 2 March 2008 (EST)


 * This Jak Post article (2008) notes a study that estimates the motorcycle death toll at 300 per month &mdash; that's 3600 deaths per year! (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:59, 2 March 2008 (EST)

Bluebird
That bluebird taxi image could do with an update if for no other reason than to assist a traveller in identifying one, plus that model is no longer used by BB having long ago been replaced by the new toyotas. No, sorry I am not in jakarta, the bluebirds where I am have a somewhat different texture to the background (trees) so I cannot supply myself. (WT-en) felix 03:54, 17 September 2010 (EDT)

Its a light blue cab with a picture of a black bird. check this link: http://www.google.com/imgres?q=blue+bird+taxi+logo+in+jakarta&hl=en&client=safari&sa=X&rls=en&biw=1278&bih=609&tbm=isch&tbnid=pM-I2F4spGvXUM:&imgrefurl=http://jakartatravelguide.blogspot.com/p/how-to-get-around.html&docid=oAbDf6rPNU79-M&w=200&h=158&ei=N5RMTr6nOarj0QHkmKT3Bg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1059&vpy=252&dur=1144&hovh=126&hovw=160&tx=124&ty=81&page=2&tbnh=126&tbnw=160&start=16&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:16

Anand Ashram

 * Anand Ashram: Located at Jalan Sunter Mas Barat II-E Block H-10/1, for Meditation, Yoga, Holistic Health, Personal Development Exercises. Interfaith Talks/Activities Tel +62 818 163391

This listing has been moved here for discussion as to appropriateness in the main article on Jakarta. We need to consider if this centre is a significant attraction in Jakarta, or if it warrants inclusion for some other reason associated with the services it provides. Perhaps it should be considered for the Cope section as it may be more appropriate placed there, or perhaps it should be in the article covering the section of Jakarta in which it is located. It is also inappropriately formatted, Capitalisation has been used inappropriately and the standard listing formatting has been ignored. The contributing editor has (despite some repeated prompting) apparently still not read the MoS, yet continues to contribute content related to this and associated endeavours in the Jakarta, Bogor and Ubud articles. If it does go back in it must be properly formatted first, and an appropriate article position needs to be determined. -- (WT-en) felix 11:40, 5 May 2012 (EDT)


 * I think it belongs (with proper formatting and No Unnecessary Capitalization, of course) in the "Do" section of the guide for the district where it's located. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 18:01, 5 May 2012 (EDT)
 * I think the same, maybe if it is correctly formatted it can then be listed in the appropriate Jakarta district article. Perhaps (WT-en) Anand Ashram might like to do that. -- (WT-en) felix 16:13, 6 May 2012 (EDT)

Wording on 'By taxi' section would be easily misinterpreted?
3rd para: Some other large, generally reliable companies include Taxiku, Express, Dian Taksi, and newly established Taxicab...

4th para: A cheaper option is to take a TARIF BAWAH (low tariff) taxi - Putra (dark blue) is regarded as a reasonable TARIF BAWAH taxi ...

I think, unfamiliar reader will assume that "Blue Bird group, Taxiku, Express, Dian Taksi, Taxicab are more expensive than Putra"


 * Putra are cheaper than Bluebird, however only a very ill-informed or overly adventurous visitor would use them. The section has been edited to suggest avoiding the numerous low tariff taxis, normally they end up more expensive anyway due to various ruses to inflate the amount paid by the passenger. -- (WT-en) felix 21:17, 29 June 2012 (EDT)

APTB and BKTB, where do they belong?
It has been about a year or two since there is a new transportation mode called APTB (Angkutan Perbatasan Terintegrasi Busway) or Busway Integrated Border Transportation and BKTB (Bus Kota Terintegrasi Busway) or Busway Integrated City Bus. Both can be used interchangeably should you want to use the busway system. But while the former uses mostly busway stops before detaching itself from the busway system and continue to their destination, which is to Jakarta's satellite cities, the latter are mostly detached from the busway system, yet at certain areas they stop at busway stops. Where do you think I should include both or one of each? In the By busway section, or the By bus section? Othello95 (talk) 06:41, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * IMO both should be included in the "By bus" section. ϒpsilon (talk) 06:53, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Train and Transjakarta charts in "Get around"
Hi, everyone. I think that these charts should be eliminated and replaced by prose summaries that are more readable, an enlarged map of the Transjakarta busway lines - preferably up-to-date - and a map of commuter trains, if many visitors from outside the commuting area are likely to find them useful. Right now, I think these sections are too long and have information that's too dense to be really reader-friendly for the average tourist or business traveler.


 * Lists of bus stops moved from the article and left below for reference. Texugo (talk) 18:59, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

The other three corridors will be finished before end of 2016.


 * Hi, admins. I'm too scared to erase all of the above because the map is outdated as 1 other line (Corridor 12) is already in operation. If you wish to erase the the train stations list too, feel free to do so, but allow me to make a solution first. I'll try asking the train company to display the map here, but otherwise I'll make it myself. How do I make it? Othello95 (talk) 03:44, 14 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Moved from "Get in/By train," because just as Texugo found the Transjakarta schedules too dense to be user-friendly, I find these commuter train schedules too dense. We don't reproduce the entire LIRR schedule in the New York City article; why would this be necessary here?

Commuter services operates over these lines:


 * Jakarta Kota-Bogor: JAKARTA KOTA - Jayakarta - Mangga Besar - Sawah Besar - Juanda - Gondangdia - Cikini - MANGGARAI (Transit point to Bogor and Bekasi) - Tebet - Cawang - Duren Kalibata - Pasar Minggu Baru - Pasar Minggu - Tanjung Barat - Lenteng Agung - Universitas Pancasila - Universitas Indonesia - Pondok Cina - DEPOK BARU - DEPOK - Citayam - Bojonggede - Cilebut - BOGOR
 * Jakarta Jatinegara-Bogor: JATINEGARA (Transit point from Bekasi) - Pondok Jati - Kramat - Gang Sentiong - PASAR SENEN - Kemayoran - Rajawali - KAMPUNG BANDAN (Transit point to Tanjung Priok) - Angke - Duri (Transit point to Tangerang) - TANAH ABANG (Transit point to Serpong) - Karet - Sudirman - Mampang - the next stations are the same as the Jakarta Kota- Bogor line
 * Jakarta Kota-Bekasi: JAKARTA KOTA - Jayakarta - Mangga Besar - Sawah Besar - Juanda - GAMBIR - Gondangdia - Cikini - MANGGARAI (Transit point to Bogor) - JATINEGARA Transit point to Jakarta looplin or Bogor) - Cipinang - Klender - Buaran - Klender Baru - Cakung - Kranji - BEKASI
 * Jakarta-Tangerang: DURI (Transit point to Jakarta loopline) - Grogol - Pesing - Bojong Indah - Rawa Buaya - Kalideres - Poris - Batu Ceper - Tanah Tinggi - TANGERANG
 * Jakarta-Serpong/South Tangerang: TANAH ABANG (Transit point from Jakarta loopline) - Palmerah - Kemayoran - Pondok Betung - Pondok Ranji - Jurangmangu - Sudimara - Rawa Buntu - SERPONG - Cisauk - Cicayur - PARUNG PANJANG - Cilejit - Daru - Tenjo - Tigaraksa - MAJA
 * Jakarta Kota-Tanjung Priok (weekends only) : JAKARTA KOTA - KAMPUNG BANDAN (Transit point from Jakarta loopline/Yellow line) - ANCOL - TANJUNG PRIOK

Station names written in CAPITALS are transit points, terminus, or both. Station names in BOLD are intercity stations.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:37, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Golf is the major activity?!?
Golf may be all-important to some, but do we really need to get rid of information on other activities? --W. Frankemailtalk 10:02, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


 * While I don't think a lot of other sports are distinctive enough to be inserted here (such as drifting or go-kart), I do agree that golf is one major activity that the rich usually does, it is after all one of the best places to play in (Southeast) Asia, where else would you find a place to play 18 or even 27 holes below the skyscrapers? But if it seems like what I did is too much, so I will look forward to insert an article about playing futsal or soccer, badminton, and swimming, three of the minor ones people do play. Othello95(talk) 04:21, 13 September 2014 (UTC).


 * So have you now restored the material on other pastimes you deleted with this edit? --W. Frankemailtalk 14:42, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 * No, because I believe it is unnecessary. I do believe that the futsal and badminton is distinctive to Jakarta, and bowling centers as well as karaoke in Asian cities, but every city in the world has a fitness center, and I don't find any in Jakarta distinctive enough to be listed. In addition, I'm not sure about the drifting circuit at Artha Gading and go-karts because I have never seen it on the mall's website again since I'm browsing it last week, presumably closed. OK, I will go ahead with the karaoke and bowling alley but NOT with the fitness centers and drifting. I will only copy and paste, not revert.Othello95(talk) 15:38, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I revert. I decided that I will not include bowling in the Jakarta article itself, but it is definitely possible to be fit at the respective district's articles. I don't find any distinctive features to be listed other than the cheap price Othello95(talk) 15:55, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The way you're thinking about this seems reasonable: Feature the sports that are distinctive to or a strength of the area in the overall guide to the city, and then list whatever a traveller might find fun in district guides. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:02, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

What does this mean?
After Jakarta have more TransJakarta buses and trial to not implemented 3 in 1 system so starting on May 16, 2016 3 in 1 system is formally not implemented until further notice.

Give a clear version in Bahasa Indonesia on this page, if not in English. That sentence makes no sense to me. Is it important for visitors? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:02, 11 May 2016 (UTC)


 * http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2016/05/10/greater-jakarta-3-1-be-applied-afternoon-only.html Looks like a car pooling system. Not sure how it works. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:21, 11 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Jakarta now uses the odd-even number plate system in some of the main roads, instead of using 3-in-1 system, where you need to have at least 3 person in one car. Also motorcycles are not allowed to drive in these areas at the specific time. ibhi19 (talk) 11:11, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Tour listing
I've moved this here for discussion. My feeling is, if it can be listed under the tour listing criteria, it still should presumably be moved to the appropriate district guide, but since no address or Geo coordinates (or indeed any other contact info) are given, it's unclear which one that should be:



Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:34, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Music Festivals in Jakarta
There's no Java Rockingland anymore since the last inception in 2014. Nowadays, there are newer festivals such WTF (We The Fest) and Soundrenaline, which is held in Jakarta, Surabaya, and Bali as the last stop of the tour. ibhi19 (talk) 13:08, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Alcohol/Booze stores in Jakarta
Hello!

I found a list of booze/wine stores throughout Jakarta and was wondering if it's worth mentioning on Jakarta page since 7-Eleven chain is closed and long before its closure didn't sell any alcoholic drinks anymore. Thank you.

Regards,

ibhi19 (talk) 10:19, 2 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Sure, mention the wide availability of booze/wine stores in Jakarta. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:32, 2 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Alright, the list is already there. Thank you! ibhi19 (talk) 11:36, 2 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but I don't think I agree with putting full listings here. I would suggest for the listing templates to be moved to the relevant district guides, with names and links to the "Drink" sections of each district guide left here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:10, 2 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Alright, will do ASAP. ibhi19 (talk) 07:16, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Alternative banner


Hello!

I have a photo that might be useful for refreshing the banner once in a while. I'm looking forward to your feedback. Thanks! ibhi19 (talk) 14:07, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

MRT Reliability
I'd rather err on the side of the MRT still being slightly unreliable, and they're still tweaking stuff a couple of months into operation.
 * Multi-trip cards aren't available yet, signs still covered by paper in some areas
 * Bank payment cards still aren't reliable, I know some people get errors regularly using them
 * Station attendants will still regularly redirect people to use the booths to purchase single-trip cards over the vending machines
 * Various tweaks and changes to timetables still ongoing (women-only car designation is still experimental AFAIK)
 * Some infrastructure still isn't complete (ongoing work at Fatmawati and Lebak Bulus station area)

I don't know if it's particularly necessary to say it's "experimental", but I think it should be expressed that it's still a young service that's constantly changing, so anything you read or watch about it might be slightly different by the time you get there. --Rizqidjamaluddin (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree with you completely as the service is still expanding (Phase 2 of the MRT is on progress) and a lot of "cosmetic" works still has to be done. It's still two months old, so disruptions may occur and changes to the service are expected. ibhi19 (talk) 01:57, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * (late answer but) I can confirm that experience during early phase of Jakarta MRT, as with every new public transport system there were some imperfection back then.-- Vulp here  10:01, 15 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I don't think that's helpful 2 years later. SHB2000 (talk) 10:29, 15 April 2021 (UTC)


 * So, which update should we bring for this particular service? We have to wait for the extension of the service to be finished in years time. Is it necessary to put up the entire map of the MRT service itself? ibhi19 (talk) 10:32, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

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