Talk:Italian phrasebook

Untitled
How do you say "nice to meet you" in Italian?
 * Piacere di conoscerla (formal) Piacere di conoscerti (informal)

Learn Italian Pod
Hey, so I've been trying to study a little Italian every day using podcasts from http://learnitalianpod.com. It's a great resource. So today I took a look at their newest entry, a phrasebook. They've based it on this article! I think this is a perfect example of the power of the Creative Commons and free content in general!

Thank you Jane and Massimo ! -- (WT-en) Mark 03:35, 25 May 2006 (EDT)

How do you pronounce 'j'?
Is it as in 'jug' or the French 'j'aim' and the English 'pleasure'? No, it's more like a normal i: ex. junior=iunior, Juventus=Iuventus.

"Learning more" section
I think that section is just an invitation for spamming wars, such as just started. I am simply going to delete the section. Anyone who wants to find audio instruction is unlikely to have too much trouble web searching, and in any case, no article is supposed to have an external links section, which is effectively what that section is. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:01, 7 November 2011 (EST)

"Per favore" vs. "Per piacere"
Are there regional differences in usage? I've spent most of my time in Italy in Tuscany and Umbria, though I've also visited Lazio and Campagna. I found that people used per piacere all the time and not per favore. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:57, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * My Italian is very weak, but I can't find any evidence of strong regional variation. Some relevant online discussions can be found here, here, and here. Texugo (talk) 20:08, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Ikan Kekek I think that they are the same. There is also another one: per cortesia, that is more polite. -- Lkcl it  (Talk) 15:07, 29 September 2014 (UTC)-- Lkcl it  (Talk) 15:08, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Some questions
I have some comment about the information in this page: Could someone check my last edit: I'm not able to correct the pronunciation. -- Lkcl it  (Talk) 15:26, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Where are the restrooms? I think that it's better to translate it with Dove sono i bagni pubblici rather than Dove sono i gabinetti?
 * 2) We usually translate map as Mappa or cartina, Carta only in followed by an adj. like Carta stradale. (Potete mostrarmelo sulla carta?)
 * 3) When you write May I have some____ does it mean that I have only to complete the sentence with the following text? If yes articles should be removed.


 * OK, first, "restrooms" are not "bagni pubblici." Those would translate as "public baths." "Restrooms" are toilets - that is, gabinetti. But perhaps the English should be made clearer by substituting "toilets" for "restrooms." Second: Please go ahead and translate "map" as you see fit. However, "carta stradale" may be the term tourists most often see on the cover of maps they might buy. Third: Yes, your interpretation is correct, so do remove the articles. I'll try to remember to check pronunciations when I have a chance, but Italian is so easy and straightforward to pronounce that pseudo-pronunciations risk making things more difficult instead of clarifying. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:24, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Ikan Kekek I know that literally restrooms means gabinetti, but it doesn't sound very well: I have never heard someone asking "Dove sono i gabinetti": With bagno, we also translate bathroom, toilets. See there. I think that to ask "Dove sono i bagni pubblici" is the better solution (try to search bagni pubblici on google). -- Lkcl it  (Talk) 15:35, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Are there regional differences, or has the word "gabinetto" become rude since the 1990s or so? I always understood "il bagno" as meaning "the bathroom (where you have a bath)," not "the toilet," and never would have asked for "il bagno" in a trattoria. I'm admittedly not fluent in Italian, but my parents were (my mother was a high-paid translator, and my parents were taken for fiorentini, to the great amusement of bolognesi, when they visited Bologna), from the year they spent living in Florence in 1963, and they always used "dov'è il gabinetto" (I did, too, in the 1990s, and no-one ever corrected me, whereas I was corrected for plenty of other things I said). Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:49, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * All that said, you're a native speaker, so correct this phrasebook any way you think best. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:56, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Ikan Kekek i'm not saying you are wrong, in my opinion both are correct forms (and if we look only the definition, gabinetti is the best solution), but nowadays the most common is bagno (generalized for all the place with a wc). I don't know if there are regional differences and I can't know if it has become rude since 90s (I was too young and I can't remember). Can we write both the possibilities? If think that for a tourist know that often "Bagni pubblici" means toilet and not lido or bath will be useful. -- Lkcl it  (Talk) 20:30, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course! As I said, you are a native speaker, so edit as you think best. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:48, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Adjectives
Should we mention in the "Grammar" section that adjectives have to agree by gender and number and give a couple of examples, and should we mention that there are no proper adjectives in Italian - all are by default lowercase? Maybe that's more advanced than readers of this phrasebook need to know? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:18, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I think that adjectival agreement is something worth mentioning at Romance language phrasebooks as it's likely to be confusing but it's very easy to understand. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:26, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's not really that complicated to understand. How's this?

In Italian, adjectives must agree in gender and number with the noun or pronoun they modify. So for example, the word for "child" in Italian is "bambino" (masculine), plural "bambini", or "bambina" (feminine), plural "bambine". If you want to say "a small boy", you'd use "un piccolo bambino", whereas two small boys would be "due piccoli bambini", a small girl would be "una piccola bambina" and two small girls would be "due piccole bambine". Also, Italian has no proper adjectives, so, for example, "Italian" is always represented in lowercase in Italian, but again must agree in gender and number: "un bambino italiano"; "una bambina italiana".


 * I think this could probably be improved upon, and something should probably be said about word order, but I get that more from speaking than from any theoretical understanding. I'd say the default is for the adjective to follow the noun, but there are exceptions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:23, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Works for me. And especially for anyone with a passing familiarity with French, Portuguese, Romanian, Spanish, etc. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:49, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, they're all basically similar in matters of adjective agreement, to my knowledge. I'll wait a few days to see if anyone comes up with something better, and if not, I'll post this, knowing that posting it might stimulate further improvement. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:09, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Added, with very slight edits. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:17, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Possessives
Whereas I found adjectives simple in Italian, especially because I had studied 1 year of Latin and 3.5 years of French before my first trip to Italy, possessives were a bit awkward at first, as they are formed differently from any other Romance language I know, in that the article is used along with the genitive pronoun: "I suoi libri", "La tua macchina", "Il mio flauto", etc. Would someone like to write up a usage note about possessives? If not, I'll try my hand at it when I'm not so sleepy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:28, 13 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I tried my hand at these. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:34, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Vowel "o"
Can we make it "o" as in "oh"? Right now, an American reading this who doesn't know British English will be likely to get it wrong, as "order" is pronounced "awrder" by a large number of Americans, and "off" is "awff". I think at least both British and American native speakers pronounce the vowel in "oh" without an "aw" sound (Kiwis are probably out of luck here, as their "oh" may be some way toward "oi", if I remember correctly). The big problem for English speakers is eliminating the "w" or "oo" sound from their "o" in Italian - particularly for Brits, who tend to have a "w" sound at the end of "italiano". So if they're pronouncing "oh" as if it were spelling "ohw", that's a problem. What do you all think? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:41, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

"eu"
Can we do better than to analogize it to Spanish? "Eu" is "eyoo" Europa in Italian is "eyoo-ROH-pah". Any feedback on this? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:46, 6 June 2017 (UTC)


 * My suggestion would be "eu" as in "hey you". What do you think? If I don't get replies to these threads very soon, I will plunge forward and make changes on my own. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:32, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Word for "noodles"
A translation of tagliatelle is given, but I think that's wrong and that the generic word for noodles is simply "pasta". Tagliatelle are a particular type of pasta. Anyone disagree? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:33, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Edits
I plunged forward and made these edits, addressing the previous few threads that as yet got no response. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:22, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Pullman
When I was in Italy in the 1990s, the most commonly used word for bus seemed to be "pullman". If that's still a commonly used word, we should include it. In the U.S., the Pullman porters worked on trains, so the Italian meaning for the word does not come naturally to Americans. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:51, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Ikan Kekek I actually can't say which is the most common word, but I use "autobus and pullman". According to "Treccani" a pullman is more luxurious than an "autobus or a corriera". -- Lkcl it  (Talk) 21:28, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I didn't know about that shade of difference in meaning. I will add the word to the phrasebook later, unless someone else beats me to it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:39, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

2nd person plural
Why is this form used so much in the phrasebook? Except when actually speaking to more than one person, isn't it much more polite to use the "Lei" form? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:16, 8 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Reposted from dotm: My understanding is that using those to address a single person is very patronizing - my parents told me that in the 60s, that was the form people used for their maids instead of "tu", and of course they used the "Lei" form for everyone else except their family members and closest friends. Things had loosened up considerably by the 90s, when I found that fellow students and other people around my age (then in my mid 20s) just about automatically used "tu" among themselves, but when speaking with service personnel, "Lei" was used. My feeling is that all commands and requests in the phrasebook except those expressly for more than one person should be in the "Lei" (3rd person, and often conditional) form. So "potrebbe" instead of "potete" and so on. But I would really like a native speaker or at least someone with more recent and extensive experience in Italy to address this point. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:17, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Ikan Kekek I agree with you: "lei" form is the correct polite version, somewhere, expecialy in the Southern part of Italy also "voi" form is used, but is an arcaic form. -- Lkcl it  (Talk) 21:12, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Revisions
I made fairly extensive revisions, but I'm not a native speaker, so please check these. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:50, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Ikan Kekek You have made a great job. I'll only suggest few corrections:
 * "Si accetta" in "Si accettano" because dollari/sterline/carte di credito are plural.
 * "Ci sono qualcune stuzzicherie" sounds very bad -> "Ci sono degli stuzzichini"?
 * " Lei ha questo della mia taglia?" -> i think that "lei" is not necessary, you may change in "(lei) Ha questo della mia taglia?". " Lei può spedirlo (all'estero)? " "Lei potrebbe mostrarmelo sulla mappa/carta stradale? " "Lei può suggerirmi un altro hotel? " the same.
 * " Pulisca la mia camera, per favore" sounds a little bit imperative, perhaps "Potrebbe pulire la mia camera, per favore" is better.
 * I haven't had much time so there may be other mistakes and I can't help with the pronunciation. -- Lkcl it  (Talk) 18:56, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Much appreciated. I'll make the changes. Please feel free to make any edits - I give you blanket approval in advance, as you're a native speaker. Just post here after the fact if you think anything needs more of an explanation than you can put in an edit summary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:09, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek Finally have found some time to read the article, here some advises: tha If you don't understand something (i know my English is not always excellent) or you want more explanations pleas tell me. -- Lkcl it  (Talk) 19:17, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * (Noun) "Esso" is gramatically correct, but it is rarely used.
 * "Non c'è problema or Nessun problema (non cheh proh-BLEH-mah)" you have missed a pronunciation
 * "Conosco solo alcune parole in italiano." yes, it is correct but perhaps "Conosco solo poche parole in italiano." sounds better
 * Watch for the:
 * "Guardi il _____. (formal)(GWAHR-dee eel...) / Guarda il _____. (informal)(GWAHR-dah eel...)" is not correct because means look at ...
 * "Cerchi il (formal)(CHEHR-kee eel...) / Cerca il _____. (informal)(CHEHR-kah eel...)" means look for
 * if you mean beware sth I'll translare "Presti attenzione al .... (formal)/ Attento al ....! (informal))
 * Please take me to_____. and Take me to _____, please.  are the same? I can't notice the difference
 * fixed-price meal : in many restaurant during the week (from monday to friday but not on holydays) there is the "pranzo di lavoro" that is a fixed-price meal. As the name suggest workers usually go there to have lunch but everyone can have it. I don't know if you want to add also this expression.
 * Do you serve alcohol? : Servite alcolici? pronunciation missed


 * Thanks, Lkcl_it. I would love for you to edit anything in the article that needs to be corrected. I don't use "esso"; it was in the phrasebook long before I tried editing it. That's actually true of just about everything you mention here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:23, 29 June 2017 (UTC)


 * By the way, wouldn't "Si serva alcolici?" be more polite than "Servite alcolici"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:12, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
 * No, because "Si serva alcolici?" has a different meaning, or, better, has no meaning: I would probably understand "Pleas bring us some alcoholics", but also that the one who is speaking isn't a native speaker. -- Lkcl it  (Talk) 15:45, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
 * So "alcolici" has different meanings. I'd never ask this question myself, anyway. But what about "bevande alcolici"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:00, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The problem isn't "alcolici", but "si serva". Probably I've misundestood you. If you meant "Si servono alcolici?" that is correct but i think that "Si servono alcolici" or "Servite alcolici" are more or less the same (you can choose one or both of them). Also "alcolici" or "bevande alcoliche" are the same. -- Lkcl it  (Talk) 08:07, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Right, "si servono" because "alcolici" is plural. I'm trying to avoid the "voi" forms, which I thought you had agreed was a good idea. For what it's worth, I always saw the phrase "bevande alcoliche" and would have simply asked "C'e un elenco di vini qui?" or something similar, as I wasn't going to drink liquor with my meal (though occasionally a grappa afterwards), and in bars, it's obvious that liquor is served. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:28, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agreed about the "voi form" when it is used as a polite form (Mi può portate dell'acqua instead Mi potete portare dell'acqua), but this case "Servite alcolici" is a little bit different. I can't explain clearly, but I'll try to find an explanation: voi is refering to the workers (the restaurant/bar staff). Perhaps there are other explanations, but that's the first that I've thought. -- Lkcl it  (Talk) 12:42, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Il menù
I don't think this means "the menu". In my experience, the English word "menu" translates to "la carta", and "il menù" means a prix fixe menu. Am I right, or was that only true in the time (1990s) and places (well, throughout Tuscany, Umbria, and also in Lazio and Campagna) I went to? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:10, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I understand very basic Italian (self-studied from a "Tourist's Italian" book :)) and I too would probably ask for "la carta, per favore" or something like that. However I just looked at articles of some random Italian destinations, and clicked on the websites in the Eat sections. (As a side note more than half of those links lead to discontinued websites). All restaurants I found did call it "menù". Or is it that the physical menu is called "la carta" and the content is known as "menù"? Perhaps native speakers could help with this? --ϒpsilon (talk) 10:03, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Ikan Kekek I'm sorry to be late, btw when I go to a restaurant I ask for a "Menu" and not for "la carta", I would (perhaps) only use "la carta dei vini", but also in this case "la lista dei vini" sounds better. Like in other languages, there may be regional differences, I'm from Lombardy. -- Lkcl it  (Talk) 08:19, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Interesting, and thanks for responding. The word does in any case require an accent, though, doesn't it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:55, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Both forms are accepted: if you use menu is because you are considering the word as a french word used in italian, if you use menù you are considering the word as part of Italian vocabulary. Perhaps in restaurants is more common to find "menù", but I think that this is not a tourist problem. -- Lkcl it  (Talk) 11:34, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
 * OK. Thanks for the information. If you see any remaining problems or things that are lacking and should be in this phrasebook, please correct/add. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:13, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "s"
Re: this edit:

If "s" is pronounced like English "z" between vowels only in Northern Italy, how are the words "casa" and "cassa" distinguished in Southern Italy? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:01, 30 June 2018 (UTC)