Talk:Gothic architecture

Sleep
Would it be OK to add Sleep section and list hotels located in renovated Gothic buildings, like Maastricht's Kruisherenhotel?
 * Oh, yeah that would be great! I am very pleased with how this article is coming along! Texugo (talk) 12:55, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Can we come up with a couple of others so this isn't in a section all by itself? Texugo (talk) 11:32, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There must be some genuinely neo-Gothic hotels. I know there is one attached to the St. Pancras Station in London. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:50, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There are less converted churches than I thought. There is a bookshop in Maastricht as well and a bar in Nottingham. I think of adding them to Do somehow. Jjtkk (talk) 12:29, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I imagine we will find others as we go along, particularly neo-Gothic ones. Texugo (talk) 12:37, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Neo-gothic?
Does the destination section contain Neo-gothic stuff too, or do we need a new section for that? Texugo (talk) 14:21, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I think we should put neo-Gothic buildings in a separate section (I'd suggest after the subsection on secular Gothic buildings), so as not to confuse the issue. It's important for travellers to know that a building like the Cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York is not actually a Gothic building. Empirically, I have so far found that Gothic and neo-Gothic buildings have a very different feel, and they were certainly constructed starting in a much different age. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:39, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Is it OK to add additional links for neo-Gothic architecture from Commons and Wikipedia to the sidebar? If not, at least I posted those two links here, where they are useful to editors looking for good examples of neo-Gothic buildings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:19, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * We could also consider separating neo-Gothic/Gothic revival into another article, but I think it serves the traveler best if the two related styles are kept in the same article, and I don't think "because it could be separately linked" is a good reason to separate the articles, though I'd hope we could include those links to the sidebar. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:23, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, let's see how much info we end up with in the article. If the explanation and destination breakdown becomes too cumbersome we can always split it off. I imagine it will go that way if we really cover it well. Texugo (talk) 13:37, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I think splitting would be better. Not only because they are different, but also because Gothic Revival has 'double affiliation' - it is related to Gothic, on one hand, but even more to other revival styles (Romanesque Revival, Baroque Revival) on the other hand. Tourist-guide-wise speaking, Gothic revival (and all revivals) is a different story to tell; it's about Romanticism, about the 19th century's artistic longing for the past, etc. A Gothic castle is a military structure; a Gothic Revival castle is essentially a folly, though often an amazingly beautiful one :) AntonBryl (talk) 12:03, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I didn't reply to this at the time, but it's an excellent point, something to bear in mind going forward. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:33, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Acoustics
Is there really any evidence that the architects of Gothic cathedrals understood acoustics well enough to produce them by design? I think there are large numbers of 20th century buildings with appalling acoustics.

Also, what is Gothic music? &bull; &bull; &bull; Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:12, 5 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I preface this answer by saying that I am a musician and teach music, and I don't know the physics behind acoustics, but I will say that the ancient Greeks already understood a lot about acoustics, and that every Gothic cathedral I've been in so far has had wonderful acoustics, so I do indeed think they understood acoustics very well, irrespective of the fact that there are 20th-century buildings with appalling acoustics (including neo-Gothic buildings like the Cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York). The whole basis for Gothic architecture was complex mathematical proportions, such as were also used in Gothic music (particularly Ars Nova music, named after a now-lost treatise by Vitry). Examples of Gothic composers would include Perotinus, probably the first man to compose music to be performed in the not yet complete new Gothic Cathedral of Notre Dame, Philippe de Vitry, Guillaume de Machaut, and in Italy, Francesco Landini and several others. John Dunstaple in the 15th century was one of the exponents of a style called the "English countenance," which helped to spur the transition from the Gothic style to the early Renaissance style of composers like Guillaume Dufay, but in some ways, both he and Dufay can still be considered Gothic. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:34, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I have heard of Ars Nova, de Machaut and Dufay, but not the others. There is always something new to learn (or in this case old...). Maybe they got the acoustics right by accident and stuck with a system that worked. I don't know enough about the theory to judge, but I would have thought it a bit complicated for a real understanding in that era rather than a rule of thumb system. Cheers, &bull; &bull; &bull; Peter (Southwood) (talk): 12:21, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, don't ancient Greek and Roman theaters also have great acoustics? They perform opera every summer at the Arena di Verona. So I think those folks knew what they were doing. But maybe I haven't heard enough performances in Gothic buildings to make such a general comment about their acoustics. I'll edit it a bit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:37, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Châteauesque architecture
I just deleted the Fort Garry Hotel in Winnipeg, because it's like the Plaza Hotel in New York, which is identified as being neo-French Renaissance. But what do we do with the Chateau Frontenac? Is it neo-Gothic or neo-Renaissance? I think it's doubtfully neo-Gothic, so though I absolutely love the building, I think it should probably be deleted from this article. The castle mansions I added in Greater Victoria stay, because they are obviously neo-Gothic in appearance. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:12, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * So I did delete Frontenac. I think there could be enough of a basis for an article about Châteauesque architecture, though I don't think it's a priority, considering that there's Romanesque, Renaissance, Baroque, Rococo, Art Nouveau, Art Deco, and Contemporary architecture to deal with. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:28, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

French Gothic
I added links to this article from a bunch of places yesterday, and noticed we have a lot of references to "French Gothic". If anyone has the knowledge, the top of the France section might include a bit of info on what makes French Gothic unique. There may be tidbits to say about the Gothic styles of other countries too. Texugo (talk) 13:13, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't have the knowledge, and I'm not sure French Gothic is so much unique as just the first. The Abbot Suger was a Frenchman working in France, so that's where the Gothic style of architecture started, or at least the dominant one of cathedrals with flying buttresses, et al. I will say this, though: The Gothic architectural styles in Florence and Siena are quite different from the French styles, and that's true in the other arts, too. I'd have to do some research to be able to explain the differences in architecture as well as I could explain the differences in sculpture, though (in which the Italians were more influenced by the Roman models in their midst). Also, I've been to a bunch of Gothic churches and other structures in France and haven't written all of them up. I could add cathedrals in Auxerre, Autun, Saumur, and Semur, after I check to make sure they're all more Gothic than Romanesque. I've traveled more widely in France and Italy than in other European countries so far, though that's changing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There are regional differences between French, Italian, German, Eastern European and British buildings, due to differences in available materials (e.g. brick churches don't have flying buttresses and statues on facades) and builders' skills. It probably needs another section in Understand. Jjtkk (talk) 10:59, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Good point about Brick Gothic, et al. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:19, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I wrote a paragraph on Brick Gothic. I don't think it's great, though. Please write more on different Gothic styles if you have the chance, and I'll look at it later and see if it could use more editing. Thanks. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:59, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

AWB changes
Façade is correct, but why should "middle ages" be capitalized? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:53, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

To do list
What are the next steps that should be taken with this article, and what would be needed for it to attain Guide status? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:35, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I'd still like to know what would or could make this article a Guide. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:02, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * As of now there is a comprehensive description of what Gothic architecture is and good a list of Gothic buildings — compared to that the end of the article is poor. The last sections could be expanded, for instance with particular events in and around Gothic buildings like regular music events, historical-themed events and such. Also, if there are bars and restaurants (preferably ones that have been around for a while) in Gothic buildings they could be added too. --ϒpsilon (talk) 11:34, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are right. I believe there is a bar in a Gothic building that used to be an inn for pilgrims in Autun, right across the street from the mostly Romanesque Cathedral of Autun. This will take work from a bunch of people, but it's the right direction to go in. I believe the Sainte-Chapelle in Paris has a concert series, and I suppose quite a number of other Gothic places of worship do, not to mention neo-Gothic ones. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:06, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

St. John's Cathedral in Brisbane
Someone (I believe the Telstra IP user) posted that this cathedral is the "largest Gothic church in the Southern Hemisphere". Of course it can't be Gothic. But what about "largest"? Is that misleading? From St John's Cathedral (Brisbane): "The cathedral is also the only existing Neo-gothic-style building in all of Australia and the southern hemisphere." If it's truly the only Neo-Gothic building in the Southern Hemisphere, it makes no sense to say it's the "largest", because it's also the smallest and most middle-sized. So can anyone confirm or deny that sentence in the Wikipedia article? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:40, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
 * The Sé Cathedral in São Paulo and other cathedral in Quito are both Neo-Gothic and very large. I'd say it's very dubious in the least. Ibaman (talk) 12:43, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I will delete the claim. Aside: Is Quito south of the Equator? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:09, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Arguably and currently
Saying that "The Neues Rathaus is one of the greatest neo-Gothic buildings in the world" is not a contentious statement. It does not need to be qualified by the weasel word "arguably". If someone wanted to say it "is the greatest", then we would have a problem because that is subjective. That problem could be solved by saying instead that it is "one of the greatest", which is what we can say here. Qualifying that statement twice is overkill. It is redundant. It's repetitive. It's boring. It's not lively writing.

And the hospital is an operating institution. Saying that it is a "currently operating institution" is the same thing. Just longer, more wordy, less lively. Ground Zero (talk) 22:10, 2 April 2019 (UTC)


 * I don't have the objection to "arguably" that you have, but by all means, make these changes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:31, 2 April 2019 (UTC)


 * I have just deleted this word as applied to Chartres cathedral. This "argument" implied by its use is simply non-existent. Ibaman (talk) 16:10, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Palace of Westminster
At the end of the entry:

"These decisions stood even after the end of World War II."

The significance of this is not explained, or why it would be ironic or surprising. This sentence from Palace of Westminster would seem more apt:

"Major conservation work has taken place since then to reverse the effects of London's air pollution, and extensive repairs followed the Second World War, including the reconstruction of the Commons Chamber following its bombing in 1941."

We could add or summarize it if that seems appropriate, but I don't know if it's necessary to do anything other than delete the last sentence. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:12, 31 December 2020 (UTC)