Talk:Estremadura

Red links
I feel like these are of no use to anyone, especially in an extra-region article. I propose to delete them all. Please express your opinion about them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:32, 22 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I have no objection to your proposal. I had a similar thought, but took a wait-and-see approach. --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 21:06, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Grammar
This is Gomes000's preferred form of words to begin this article:


 * Estremadura is a natural region or historic province in western Portugal with no modern administrative status but they continue to be recognized in common and are one of the divisions of the country with which most people most identify.

There's no plural subject for "they" to refer to, and "recognized in common" is an obscure expression with no obvious meaning in English. I tried to summarize what seemed to be the main points, as follows:


 * Estremadura is a historical province in western Portugal with no modern administrative status, though it did exist as recently as 1976 and many people in the area still identify with it.

That seemed good to me, but Gomes000 seemed to take offense at my attempt, with an edit summary including "If you don't know, search and learn," which isn't the point at all, as I don't care greatly about the form of words here, except that it should be grammatical, read well and have a normal tone for a Wikivoyage article. If it's really important to include all of Gomes000's points, here's my attempt at a grammatically correct version:


 * Estremadura is a historic province in western Portugal with no modern administrative status; however, it is commonly recognized as a region, and area residents widely identify as Estremadurans.

I should add that "The most recent legal definition of the province existed from 1936 to 1976", the succeeding sentence in Gomes000's version, seems rather trivial and encyclopedic except that it pretty much refers to the period of the Salazar dictatorship.

Can we come to agreement on some grammatically correct form of words and stop edit warring? Nricardo and Ground Zero, your thoughts would also be appreciated. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:19, 22 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I would suggest using a period in place of the semicolon, but otherwise your text looks like an improvement to me. --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 21:26, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Gomes000's version is grammatically incorrect. I agree with Ikan Kekek's last version, and with leaving out the legal trvia that won't be of interest to travellers. Ground Zero (talk) 22:47, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't care about using a period vs. a semicolon. Either is fine to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:56, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Gomes000, please make an argument within 24 hours, or I will go with the consensus edit and will expect you not to edit war. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:15, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:58, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Delete?
After trying to make sense of our Portugal hierarchy, I now lean very strongly toward deletion of this extraregion. Although used on other WV langage editions, including Portuguese, consesus at Talk:Portugal and Talk:Portugal is that we use NUTS II regions as our first level of regional division. As this article is very sparse and contributes little to understanding the country, its regions, or its cities, I think it would be best for both travellers and editors to Delete. --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 00:15, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry. Discussion should ocurr at Votes for deletion. --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 01:28, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Per Votes for deletion/March 2021, it was deleted by consensus. What happened? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:31, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @Ikan Kekek. Regions of Portugal were reorganized. Please see Talk:Portugal. Basically I back-tracked. Sorry. --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 13:37, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * No need to apologize; I don't care either way. It is just strange. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:52, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Regions (should we subdivide?)
This region is starting to get crowded (currently 25 city articles). It may be time to divide it into sub-sub-subregions. Do the following work? We may have to fudge some boundaries. Marinha Grande (doesn't exist yet, but might in the future) is in Região de Leiria, a NUTS III region which we do not use in WV. We would put it in Oeste for our purposes. There may be other municipalities that need similar fudging. @Sanjorgepinho, since you have been working on articles in this region (specifically on the Setúbal Peninsula), what are your thoughts on this? Nelson Ricardo (talk) 10:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Greater Lisbon
 * Setúbal Peninsula
 * Oeste


 * Or perhaps instead of adding another layer to the region hierarchy, we should abandon Estremadura as a subregion and have the three above plus Ribatejo as subregions of Estremadura and Ribatejo. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 10:37, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * For me we can subdivide in Greater Lisbon, Setúbal Peninsula and Oeste. As for the NUTS, since we started working with the old provinces, this subject was definitely put aside, as it was incompatible. As for the "fudging", I don't understand what you want to do.Sanjorgepinho (talk) 11:35, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Regarding "fudging"/"forgeries": Where would you place Marinha Grande in our hierarchy? Montijo is also confusing, due to its discontiguous parts, but I think Setúbal Peninsula makes the most sense, rather than Ribatejo. (The confusion I'm creating is nothing compared to that made by the Portuguese government.) Nelson Ricardo (talk) 11:45, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You will have to choose a criterion with logic, make the subdivision and replicate it for the whole country. A criterion that can work is to make the association by the old Tourism regions. There are other criteria such as the association of wine producing municipalities, such as Montijo, which belongs to the Peninsula de Setúbal wine region, but not all of the country is a wine producer. I just don't understand why it needs to be divided again. What is the maximum number of municipalities in each subdivision?Sanjorgepinho (talk) 12:26, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Once a region has more than 25 associated articles, it goes into Category:Regions with more than 25 subpages, whose text says "This may indicate that the region needs to be subdivided." Also, generally we apply Avoid long lists, which calls for limiting lists to 9 items. Although bottom-level regions are an exception, 25 is unwieldy in any case... Nelson Ricardo (talk) 12:46, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I think we might have similar problems with the old tourism regions. Where can we find a list of these, including which municipalities are in which region?
 * I don't think wine regions are practical. Only a (probably small) segment of tourists plan their visits around wine. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 12:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Estremadura could be maintained as an "extraregion" (or "estraregion"). ;-) Ground Zero (talk) 12:55, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Here are the old tourist regions https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_das_regi%C3%B5es_de_turismo_de_Portugal Sanjorgepinho (talk) 14:05, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I was expecting even older tourism regions like Costa de Prata, Costa Verde, Montanhas, Planícies, etc. I'll think about whether this list could be useful. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 14:59, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I didn't understand that, I thought you wanted to group municipalities to make a subdivision of "sub-regions" Sanjorgepinho (talk) 17:19, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * At this point, I believe that we only need to subdivide Estremadura (using the three subregions I first proposed, which you seemed to agree with a few comments later). The other regions seem to have a manageable number of destination articles and don't need subdivision at this time.
 * When you first mentioned "A criterion that can work is to make the association by the old Tourism regions", I mistakenly thought of a different set of regions than the ones you subsequently provided. Sort of like this. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 18:28, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes I agreed. The map of the 19 former Tourism regions can be found at this link Sanjorgepinho (talk) 00:23, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I don't believe that these regions are not a good fit for Wikivoyage. They were short-lived and of little memory. I believe we should stick with the 1936 provinces that we already have in place. But when a region has too many destination articles, as Estremadura does, it makes sense to subdivide it. I'll proceed with Greater Lisbon, Setúbal Peninsula, and Oeste, as discussed above. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 20:15, 13 July 2021 (UTC)