Talk:Driving in Europe

No understand section
Why os there no understand section? Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:34, 25 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Because there is none in the continent: get around by car, from where this was cut out. Just write one. --LPfi (talk) 16:34, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Speed limit map
here you can find other maps - which one should we put into the article if any? Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:39, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Short per-country info for tolls
Should we add a list with links to buy vignettes and short description for each country? A table, maybe? Soshial (talk) 18:34, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Not all countries use vignettes for tolls. Some use distance based tolls... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:28, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Which means we should probably try to describe the most common systems and their variations, and mention countries with odd systems. Perhaps a table would still be useful. --LPfi (talk) 18:00, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That's what I meant, yes. Describe different systems and group countries into those. Soshial (talk) 05:26, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

The table has been introduced. However, I think tolls for "goods-vehicles" can be left out (or mentioned as "only for lorries and the like" or similar – when the tolls affect heavy vehicles that could include mobile homes (RVs), they should of course be handled). Also, the table says distance based tolls are only for these, while the section on distance-based tolls discusses private roads, where I suppose also ordinary cars pay. --LPfi (talk) 08:25, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Trucks
An edit of mine was reverted with the comment "we provide for all kinds of [... vehicles"]. Do we? Hobbitschuster (talk) 09:58, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * We want to be a resource for all travellers, including truck drivers, but I suppose they should not rely on random sites to get legal information. Anybody driving a lorry across borders should check requirements from some official site (or their employer or whatever). A separate Driving a lorry across Europe would be valuable, if we happen to get a contributor with the required experience to write it, and there also these tolls should be mentioned, with pointers. --LPfi (talk) 11:29, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * We don't currently cover freight at all, but it may be within our scope to do so, especially since we cover Business travel.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:52, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I see both sides of this. No, I don't think were covering freight vehicles, but are there travellers driving trucks? Are the rules in question only about freight, or would they also apply to a truck modified for camping? Ground Zero (talk) 12:08, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * And there we are at the fine details of legal definitions. In some countries vans (or some variant of vans) were mostly used for delivery service, by electricians and the like, and therefore got light taxation, while ordinary cars were heavily taxed. Of course some started to make cars meant for ordinary use but fulfilling the legal definition. That legal definition may of course vary across borders. I suppose recreational vehicles may be heavily taxed, so something legally a lorry may be cheaper – until you have to install the distance measuring equipment and pay tolls that the other tourists avoid. --LPfi (talk) 13:18, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Should there be some discussion at Car camping? --LPfi (talk) 13:19, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * If we still had an editor who was a truck driver (there used to be an active editor, I believe), I think it would be a great idea, but unfortunately I’m not sure WV has the resources/knowledge to provide information on a subject that constantly needs accurate, up-to-date information and has serious safety concerns. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 13:50, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes. I think that if we have/get such an editor, the article should point out the issues and provide links to authoritative information, rather than trying to stay up to date on the facts. --LPfi (talk) 13:53, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * An example situation in Latvia and Lithuania: if you own a car registered of N1 category (a vehicle for transportation of goods with full mass <3500 kg), which in reality could be a van used for living/travel purposes — you still have to pay for vignette. Some trucks could also be used as travel vehicles. I agree, that the best thing we can do is to provide a link to official websites with the latest information. Soshial (talk) 05:32, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Value added of the toll table
In the current form I doubt the table is of much use for most travelers, especially since it mixes tolls for freight vehicles with those for pax vehicles and it does not clearly specify how much is to be paid where and so on... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:23, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Which table are you talking about? The wide round-up table or the second detailed one? The problem is that in different countries there different criteria for freight/passenger automobiles. That is why we should include as much info as possible. With time the tables will show all prices and data. Soshial (talk) 07:55, 23 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Is it possible to change the table so that the countries would be listed vertically and the types of fee horizontally? --Ypsilon (talk) 14:18, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think that this article is the place for a list of tolls on a by-country basis. It should look at the different types of toll and refer readers to the appropriate coutry article for details. For example, there are two distinct types of toll for motorways - the per-kilometre toll used in many countries and the vignette used in Austria and Switzerland.  In this article we need say no more than that. Martinvl (talk) 20:59, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Much of what is written in these tables is out of date. Unless there is any objection, I intend to move these tables to appropriate country-specific articles - either the main country aricle or, if it exists, "Driving in XXX". Martinvl (talk) 08:39, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree. Too much detail, table is difficult to read/understand and details need frequent updating. Erik den yngre (talk) 11:19, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Congestion charge
There should be some references or links for the congestion charge table? I doubt that most of those countries have congestion charges. Maybe they're confused for environmental zones which exists in Germany (where cars older than certain Euro standard are banned but allowed cars aren't charged per entry).

I've removed the entries for Croatia, Slovenia and Montenegro as I know for a fact that they don't have any such thing (neither congestion charge nor environmental zones). I also really doubt this exists in Austria, Bulgaria, Germany and Romania, but since I'm not 100% sure I haven't removed those. 93.136.220.154 22:12, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe someone mistook what a source said. It is possible that a source said "Cities may impose a congestion charge" and the author misread that. I also think that the "get around" sections of individual cities are a better place for this info than this article, especially when it comes to keeping it accurate and up to date. I think it's a good idea to raise the issue in the pub Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:52, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I created this table to have a quick overview of different kinds of charges in Europe. If you go to a country and you want to quickly figure out what kind of fees exist. In the environmental/congestion fee category I also included any infrastructure with paid entrance, so not only cities but also bridges and tunnels. For example, Croatia has Učka tunnel and Krk bridge that were not free, when I was writing the article. Soshial (talk) 09:34, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Bribery
can I still add the general info about corruption in Eastern Europe (without the anecdote) with link to Corruption and bribery? Soshial (talk) 16:10, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't own the wiki. I think a third voice would be welcome. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:38, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Provided it's accurate, we should have information on bribery.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:46, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I think Europe is too diverse a place to have a blanket statement about bribery in road user / police interactions. Maybe the individual country and "driving in..." articles are better suited for that? Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:54, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * As for the potential question as to the value of a "Driving in Europe" article in the first place - a lot of the formal rules of the road have been harmonized throughout Europe through the Vienna Convention and later the EU. Obviously there won't be a "European Convention on how to bribe police" except one the contents of which could be summarized with "Don't". Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:55, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that Europe is very diverse to any generalizations. I will write general words about it and suggesting looking for more info on separate countries pages. Soshial (talk) 17:43, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes. It might be important to note that this may be a concern in some countries, while it definitely isn't in others. Over here a police asking for a bribe would be like trying to warn the driver about flying pink elephants – if the driver understood, the next question would be why the police is wasting time on such bad jokes. –LPfi (talk) 20:28, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Upgrade to Guide status?
This article it has the essentials for an upgrade to Guide status. Is anything missing? /Yvwv (talk) 23:29, 24 February 2022 (UTC)


 * We might want to double check whether there is something more about the non-EU/Schengen countries that should be told here. For details the country pages suffice, but the general impression this page gives should be true also for them. –LPfi (talk) 23:43, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Agree with LPfi. SHB2000 (talk &#124; contribs &#124; meta.wikimedia) 09:43, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I am about to add a section on road classification and direction signposting (and in particular colours associated with motorways etc). Also I am not sure if the two tables about tolls have a place here as nowhere else (apart from the speed limit map) do we give country-by-country information. The information in these tables should be transferred to the country-specific articles. Martinvl (talk) 18:32, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * My last updates are more or less done. I think the time is now ripe for some comments.  Martinvl (talk) 23:08, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I am a bit sceptical about driving being an "enjoyable and feasible way to see the countryside and smaller cities" and that "there are plenty of alternatives to driving" in e.g. Russia. Driving may be the most practical means to get around, but I'd not feel particularly comfortable driving off major roads in, say, the Komi Republic. I'm also not confident that cars "usually are in good working order" there. I might be prejudiced and things might have improved, but I'd like somebody to confirm such a development. It might also be that the article is valid on most countries, but ignoring one or a few major countries does not qualify as "covers most aspects of the topic with no obvious omissions" in my book. Driving in Russia says "in much of Russia, driving conditions are remarkably different from western countries", and this should be handled in a good way. –LPfi (talk) 12:17, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

The article says "Countries outside EU have not harmonised their rules. See the individual country articles." Driving in Norway says nothing on the matter, and I think that country is not alone. We should make sure that essential information left out from this article indeed can be found in the country or drive in [country] articles. –LPfi (talk) 12:55, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
 * From the point of view of a visiting driver, driving in Norway or Switzerland is no different to driving in an EU country such as Germany but different from say Italy! I think that this statement only really applies to former Eastern block countries, though never having driven there, I cannot comment. (For the record, I live in the UK and have driven in 12 different European countries).‎ —The preceding comment was added by Martinvl (talk • contribs) 11 March 17:44
 * This was about driving licences, not about driving. I don't know whether there is some harmonisation on those. If there is, we should say "outside EU/EEA/EFTA" or something similar. Regardless, if we refer to another article, the info should be there, or at least a placeholder, so that readers don't have to search for non-existing info. Norway is fixed now. –LPfi (talk) 20:14, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

HGV
What's an HGV? I'm guessing it's a British term that I've probably never heard of that's very common in Europe. -- SHB2000 (talk &#124; contribs &#124; meta.wikimedia) 22:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * It is a British term (Heavy goods vehicle), not a general European term. I have worked it into the text that precedes the table where it is found. Martinvl (talk) 23:04, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, that makes sense. I think the acronym can still be used in the article as long as its full acronym is mentioned somewhere. SHB2000 (talk &#124; contribs &#124; meta.wikimedia) 23:07, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Unclear speed limit map
The map says speed limit on "highways". If highway=motorway then the map is correct, if highway=undivided (single carriageway) then the map is not correct (should for instance be 80 for Norway, not 100). Erik den yngre (talk) 00:10, 6 August 2022 (UTC)


 * The file description page says "The maximum speed is usually on motorways only, except in countries with no motorways" so yes, it is about motorways. I adjusted the caption. –LPfi (talk) 06:17, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Perfect! Erik den yngre (talk) 20:38, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Country abbreviations
I'm not sure we should use abbreviations at all, but if we have to use any, we should follow the international vehicle registration codes, instead of whatever system is being used here. That means (A) for Austria, (AL) for Albania, (AND) for Andorra, etc. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:21, 17 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Yeap, the vehicle registration codes are more relevant to this article than ISO 3166, since they are what you actually see on the cars or on the signposts for locations across the border (Schengen or not) while driving. Vidimian (talk) 12:38, 17 September 2022 (UTC)


 * On the other hand, how many readers know the vehicle registration codes for far-away countries? I suppose ISO 3166 is reasonably well-known in comparison, e.g. through internet top domains. I don't understand what use the registration codes are for visitors – if they are useful, then they should be explained, not just used. –LPfi (talk) 06:55, 18 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Those are my thoughts about abbreviations in general. While FR and IT are unlikely to pose any challenges, I don't think people will automatically know where SE and SI are, for instance. Yet there they are, unexplained.
 * How would you go about explaining the registration codes?--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:23, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I would favour LPfi's suggestion of using ISO 3166 codes. While I'm fairly familiar with vehicle registration codes, at first, "DE" screams Deutschland to me, but "D" would leave me confused – Denmark or Germany? SHB2000  (talk &#124; contribs &#124; meta) 08:45, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * ISO codes are currently used in this article.
 * As points out, the registration codes are used on directional signs in many countries where foreign destinations are involved, so the driving traveller will have to get used to them somehow.
 * But either choice of abbreviation seems more obscure than the likes used in North America (BC, NY) or Australia (Qld), and we don't commonly use those on WV.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:04, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * But then again, I guess with the exceptions of A and D, those aren't really that confusing. You and Vidimian have convinced me and I think I'm now in favour of using international vehicle registration codes. SHB2000  (talk &#124; contribs &#124; meta) 09:15, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * But one more question: if we do use vehicle codes, what should we use for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? It seems GB was used until 2021 when the UK switched to using "UK", but I'm guessing there's a very high chance many license plates still have "GB" on it. SHB2000  (talk &#124; contribs &#124; meta) 09:18, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * UK. Every big change involves a transition period.
 * I'm not trying to "convince you" to use one instead of the other per se, I am questioning the use of country abbreviations in the article at all, because their meaning isn't always clear. On our arrival in Croatia, after a very early start and horrible journey, my dad thought the HR sticker on our Europcar stood for "Holiday Rental" and was all set to complain to the company for making us obvious foreigners.
 * But if abbreviations are deemed necessary (there are a lot of pictures of road signs), it does make more sense to use the ones travellers will see on the ground.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:40, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I think substituting country names for the country codes will not mean any big change in the layout. One more line will be needed for many captions, but the captions are already multiline for some signs in the galleries where abbreviations are used. Country names are obviously much less obscure than any codes, these codes are hardly well-known, and as some codes are for different countries depending on coding system, we'd need a paragraph in Understand or a line by every table, which is more disruptive than a little lengthier captions.
 * If the country codes are relevant for foreign drivers, then they need to be listed somewhere, but them being used on some signs (I haven't noticed such use) may not make such a list necessary: if you are going to a destination across the border, you probably recognise the place name without understanding the country code (which in most cases are unambiguous in that context).
 * –LPfi (talk) 10:41, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The registration codes being used in directional signposts for destinations abroad may not be standardized all across Europe, but see this for a EU example and this for a non-EU example. We already have a templated list at the "Vignette tolls" section (although incomplete), and the registration codes (perhaps in all their old-fashioned oval grandeur) could be added there unobtrusively, if everyone agrees to include them in some form in this article. Vidimian (talk) 09:06, 20 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Adding International vehicle registration codes sounds like a good idea. Where and how should they be added?
 * I have made a stab at starting the table (see right) which I suggest should replace the photos in the section "By country". These photos can either be discarded (if they do not add any real value to the article) or can be moved elsewhere if they do illustrate a feature of European roads in general. The use of the codes could be described in a short introductory section ahead of the section "By country"
 * Martinvl (talk) 17:04, 21 September 2022 (UTC)


 * The codes themselves can be placed in a parenthesis after each country name in the country section, no table needed. If we want the native names of the countries we could repeat the English country name in the text and add the local name and registration code in a parenthesis after it. I am not sure the native name and the flag are relevant to this article. The photos are now in that section mainly because there is no room for them where the features they illustrate are discussed. –LPfi (talk) 19:11, 21 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I see that only some 15 countries have their sections in By country. Should we add a section on each, with a very short summary of the By car sections in the country articles? –LPfi (talk) 19:14, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The "By Country" section does not hold a complete list of European countries, but the list as I have proposed it will provide a link to every country in Europe while the "By Country" section will provide a link to "Driving in XXXX" where such articles exist. If we include the flag and the country's name in the local language, we at least have an index to all of Europe. AS such, moving the "By country" section into the "Understand" section together with a short section which intrioduces the international registration codes, we will have a much better introdiction to the article as a whole. The sub-sections on bribery and dealing with the police could be moved into the section on paperwork. Martinvl (talk) 20:40, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I quite like the idea of having a table/list of all the countries near the start of the article. The local names are unnecessary clutter, IMO. You could replace those with a third column called "Further information" or "Specific information" that links to the "Driving in [country]..." article where it exists or to the "[country]#By car 2" section. Or with a brief description, similar to what LPfi suggested.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:03, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
 * AS a preliminary bit of work, I have moved the subsections "Dealing with the police" and "Bribery" from the main section "Understand" and the sub-section "FInes" into a new section "Dealing with the Law". I believe that this on its own is an improvement. Martinvl (talk) 17:53, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah definitely.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:06, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Road condition gallery
There are a number of photos in this article showing road conditions. They were spread over two sub-sections, so I decided to consolidate all the images into a single gallery. Apart from the image showing a narrow street in Lisbon, for which I substituted a narrow street in Bilbao, I retained all the images and associated text. I made the swap because the imager concerend was a narrow portrait image and I found another image that conveyed a similar message which was the same proportions to other images in the gallery. Martinvl (talk) 17:25, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

International Registration Codes
I have added a section on International Registration Codes. I know that there is some discussion about including the local name, but unless we hide the table, the inclusion of the local name reduces the width available for the sub-section "By Country", which increases the length of that sub-section, thereby minimising the amount by which the images of licences are pushed down. If we want to reduce this interference yet further, we could include a small gallery with two images - one of an oval disk and the other of the code on a numbre plate. Martinvl (talk) 21:02, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I have added a small gallery showing how the international code is used in practice. The main reasn for adding the gallery was to prvent th e long list of intrenational codes from fouling the driver licence images.
 * I believe that the local names have a role to play. Consider this sign. You are obviously going into a new country, but the name same "Republik Österreich". I put the local name into the table so that people could see what the country called itself. Martinvl (talk) 22:23, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * All country articles on Wikivoyage give the native name(s) immediately. For example, Austria opens with "Austria (German: Österreich, literally "the Eastern Realm" or "Eastern Empire") is a landlocked German-speaking country..." This article is just an overview of driving in Europe, and we can certainly link to the country articles from the table. There are many potentially-relevant words we could translate in this article, from péage to Einbahnstraße, but doing so would add to the bloat.
 * In the discussion above, both LPfi and I expressed skepticism about adding the native names to the table. However, perhaps you should solicit more opinions. I'd be fine with that.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:42, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I see your point. I am also not 100% happy with the long table that appears in the article anyway. I have one proposal - create a new article "List of European Countries" (or something similar) which would contain a table with the following:
 * Name and flag of country
 * Name of country (local script)
 * Currency (ISO 4217 code, symbol and name) eg "GBP, £, pound"
 * International Vehicle Registration Code
 * ISO 3166 2-character code
 * International dialling code
 * This would be followed by a short statement about electricty supply being 230V / 50 Hz for all of Europe (I need to check this) and a statement that apart from Iceland (who drive on the right), mainland Europe drives on the right and everybody in the island nations (UK, Ireland, Channel Islands, Malta and Cyprus) drive on the left. This short statement would release two columns in the table. The country name in local script would also implicitly list the script used for the local language. I am aware that some of this information is already in the "Understand" sections of country articles, but I see no harm in repeating it in a list.
 * Thoughts? Martinvl (talk) 17:13, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Initial thoughts are that that sounds like a Wikipedia article, and the sort of thing we don't normally do. It's hard to imagine looking up a list covering a whole continent in order to find out specific information about a specific country or countries. However, I'm about to go on a trip and break from WV, so I'll leave a proper analysis and decision till when I come back. Alternatively, if you and others make a decision in my absence, I'll support whatever you implement. Sincere apologies for leaving in the middle of this.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:09, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * My logic was that if you saw the international plate "CH", but did not know where it came from, you could refer to such a page, especially if you thought that it was European. Why would you think of "Civita Helvetica" and even if you did, why woudl you link it to Switzerland?  As regards other information, such a page might help in planning a trip. Martinvl (talk) 15:24, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I have made a start on such an article. This can be found at User:Martinvl/Sandbox/Eurodata.
 * BTW, I am going away for a week starting Friday. Martinvl (talk) 14:18, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I have created the article which I have called European quick reference. If this artcile is acceoptable, we could point the list of International Vehicle Registration Code to this article. Any comments? Martinvl (talk) 18:48, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I have removed the list of International Registration COdes because they now appear in European quick reference.

Right before left
In Talk:Driving in Germany there was some discussion about the rule that those coming from the right have priority unless there are traffic lights or signage telling something else. This is the same in Finland: The concept of major or minor road has bearing only if signed, unless the minor road is an parking exit or something similarly truly minor. Is this true for all of EU, perhaps all of Europe? Where is an implicit major–minor road distinction legally recognised? Appears it is in the U.S. Where else? –LPfi (talk) 10:44, 23 February 2023 (UTC)


 * This is already discussed in the article, if I recall, referred to as "priority to the right". And no, it's not universal in Europe. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:17, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's under 'Priority at junctions'. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:18, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It seems adequate; other articles could just reference that section. –LPfi (talk) 11:27, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * WRT Talk:Driving_in_Germany and the question of whether priority to the right in 30 Zones should be pointed out despite it being the default: The same is happening in Netherlands. El Grafo (talk) 09:43, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You mean Netherlands. I think the bullet is warranted, as this article says "in most continental countries" – the reader should get to know that the Netherlands is one of those. –LPfi (talk) 10:12, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd be in favour of stating which continental countries (if any) this doesn't apply to. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:35, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Nope, I meant the speed limits section: 30 km/h zones are the home of unmarked intersections (so all traffic from the right has right of way!). Reading further, that section could use some general clean-up, as there's a lot of unrelated info in there that should be moved elsewhere. I'm fine with the Driving rules section, a quick reminder that "priority to the right applies unless otherwise noted" for those that didn't read Driving in Europe seems like a good idea. El Grafo (talk) 13:18, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Motorway and expressway gallery
Here seven more pairs were added to the gallery of motorway and expressway signs. The previous four were chosen to show signs of countries using both blue and green or either. I don't see what value the bigger gallery adds; with a reasonably narrow browser window the pairs get much less clear, the signs aren't different enough for the actual differences to matter for a traveller, and the assortment isn't complete anyway (and I'll argue it shouldn't be). I reverted, but feel free to discuss. –LPfi (talk) 05:23, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. A gallery of mostly similar signs isn't very informative. It would be more suited to Wikipedia than to our travel guide.Ground Zero (talk) 05:39, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I also agree. In this case I think that three signs should be shown - one with both in green, one with both in blue and in in which one sign is green and another blue. It might be appropriate to make mention of colour inconsistency. Martinvl (talk) 08:26, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I have no strong opinion on three or four pairs. Currently, the images are centred like in the other galleries (interrupting the text flow) and I don't think anybody has such a narrow browser window that the four would need two lines. I haven't tried with mobile, where the layout may be affected differently. –LPfi (talk) 07:49, 11 October 2023 (UTC)