Talk:Dresden

Removed peculiar bit from Dresden
When in Germany make sure to try a specialty that is not regarded particularly as German at first sight. Today, doner kebab is typically served as a kind of sandwich in pita (flat bread). This type of doner kebab has been available in Istanbul since about 1960. The doner kebab with salad and sauce served in pita, which is predominant in Germany and the rest of the world, was invented in Berlin Kreuzberg in the early 1970s, because the original preparation was not appealing enough to the German taste. Therefore, as the "modern" kebab is very dissimilar to the traditional dish except by name, it can be argued that the kebab as most people know it is a "traditional" German dish. When in Dresden you can probably get the best kebabs at Babos and at Dürum Kebap Haus (Rothenburger Straße 41 or Prager-Straße 32). A typical dish including a large drink should be around €5-6.

''I do not think discussing the peculiarities and origins of doner kebab belongs here, but I left a good part of it to explain how kebab is a popular and inexpensive form of fast food that can be found in Dresden as well. I also created listings for the kebab joints mentioned, assuming in good faith they are indeed worth recommending.'' PrinceGloria (talk) 23:25, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Splitting long lists
Policy states that we should consider splitting lists when they exceed 9.

We now have 16 establishments listed in our "Mid-range" hotels section. --W. Franke-mailtalk 23:22, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Alternative banner for this article?
In the Hebrew Wikivoyage we are currently using this banner instead of the one which is currently used here. Do you think too that this banner would would better than the existing one? ויקיג&#39;אנקי (talk) 02:24, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * They're both nice images, but the new one is clearer, so I'd tend to favor it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:10, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * What's with the "clear" thing, I am viewing this now on high-res Mac and the "clear" images come off as grainy to me. The "softer" ones look so much better. Besides, Dresden is in reality a beautiful city and the aerial view doesn't do it justice and is quite generic. The Bruhl's terrace is very uniquely Dresden, and I am all for more versatility in banners, so if we have a beautiful and truly representative night pic, I'd keep it. PrinceGloria (talk) 18:32, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The image that the new one is cropped from is used in the article, at the bottom, so this would need to be changed as well. I slightly favour the existing banner, as it does clearly show important older buildings. AlasdairW (talk) 19:00, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * That's interesting, PrinceGloria. I'm now using a new Lenovo laptop. I would defer to your superior knowledge of Dresden. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:44, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I prefer the original. It is more interesting.&bull; &bull; &bull; Peter (Southwood) (talk): 19:51, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
 * PRefer current banner Matroc (talk) 03:15, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * When I think of Dresden, the striking impression of the buildings lit in early evening from the river is the one that comes to mind. The current banner, in my view, reflect the city better. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:42, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Stay safe /Pegida
According to this http://www.taz.de/Vorfall-bei-Pegida-Demo-/!152095/ (reputed newspaper albeit with a left wing slant, printed daily sold throughout Germany) as well as this report https://www.addn.me/nazis/interview-hetzjagd-auf-migranten-in-dresden/ (left wing Dresden "alternative" online news-source) as well as several eye-witnesses there is violence accompanying the PEGIDA-protests that happen every Monday. I will try to advise visitors about this in a fair way in the stay safe section. I don't want an edit war, but I think Pegida is relevant for travellers, especially those that look or sound "foreign" (this being the English WV, this is a given with >90% of readers) and not only because the trams may be hindered by the protests.Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:55, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I can't find evidence that these are still going on, so I have trimmed back that section. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Also, the paragraph about twice-in-a-century flooding in the past doesn't seem necessary if measures to prevent it have been taken, unless I've mis-read this.Ground Zero (talk) 05:57, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Measures against flooding have been taken even before the 2013 flood. Which meant the flooding was less bad. For example, they reinforced the (artificial) bed of the river which used to flow where Hauptbahnhof now stands, thus keeping it from flooding. Major danger to humans who aren't criminally stupid never existed at any rate. Still if not in "stay safe" I think flooding should be mentioned somewhere. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:58, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

districts?
Dresden is a big draw for tourists (recent events notwithstanding) but most tourist attractions are actually within the rather small Altstadt (museums, old stuff, opera, theater etc.) and Neustadt (bars, restaurants, discos etc.) areas and there are few things outside of them (apart from the airport, nature, the "Dresdner Bergbahnen" and some other minor points of interest) as I fear that the most we could get out of this as of now are three districts (Altstadt, Neustadt and a big "donut") maybe it is a bit premature to districtify, but nonetheless, it might be a good idea to brainstorm a little regarding this topic. Any ideas? Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:48, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * At half a million people or so, it's not a city I'd expect us to need a huge city template for, unless we are somehow still missing listings for dozens of visit-worthy museums and other attractions, which I don't think is the case. Texugo (talk) 16:23, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I considered districtification when I worked on this article sometime ago, but I believe for now we cover pretty much everything in a rather neat, easily digestible form. I do not think we need separate district guides, enough orientation regarding districts is given in the guide already. And yes, htis is a perfect example of a city the size just enough for a large, meaty single-article guide.
 * Many other articles on German cities could use quite a bit of work though - not necessarily districtification (well, Berlin does), but general improvement, many are outdated, incomplete and generally woeful. PrinceGloria (talk) 19:36, 17 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I trust your judgment. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:42, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Eat section
I have removed the following entries as they are suspiciously like fake listings on other pages. Although the names of restaurants and streets sound plausible the combination in Dresden do not. As the order of listings is different from other entries of the vandal it is a little more difficult to check this article. If you believe these are genuine please add back but with more detail. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:14, 12 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Afro-Hütte , Lausitzer 35, Phone +49 35126212, Deutsches Essen, €5-10/ person,
 * Anita , Mühlenstrasse 67, Phone +49 351 24493, Italian food, €10-15/ person,
 * Antica , Hohenzollerndamm 64, Phone [0]351 / 9652, Deutsches Essen, Less than €30, Open M-Sa 10:00-23:00,
 * Athen, Schönhauser 94, Phone +49 351 1635, Greek cuisine, more than €5 for a snack
 * Britzer , Fasanenstrasse 17, Phone +49 351 20680, Deutsches Essen, voted best deli in town Open M-Sa 19:00-23:59
 * Engelbrecht , Damaschkestraße 87, Phone +49 351 5211, Deutsches Essen, more than €5 for a snack.
 * Golden Tweenis, Alter Markt 85, Phone +49 351 27228, Deutsches Essen, more than €20
 * Havana, Alexanderplatz 109, Phone +49 351 20535, Serves international food, for €5-10/ person, Open M-Su 12:00-23:00
 * Maredo , Fasanenstrasse 17, Phone [0]351 / 7922, Serves international food, light fare for €10/person,
 * Merz , Kochstrasse 85, Phone [0]351 / 908, Deutsches Essen, light fare for €10-15/ person, Open Mon-Sun from 10AM - 12 AM,
 * Mona , Blissestrasse 25, Phone [0]351 / 6914, Deutsches Essen, Where the locals go. Open Mon-Sat from 10AM - 11 PM
 * Petit , Rheinstrasse 59, Phone [0]351 / 9010, French cuisine, More than €5 for a snack. Open Mon-Sun from 5PM - 11 PM


 * Adding three more to the list (and removing them from the main page): Xsobev (talk) 10:06, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Getting this to guide status
So this is currently at "usable" but one of the main tourist destinations in East Germany. I don't think much is missing for guide status, but a few pointers as to what to do exactly would be nice. What do y'all think? Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:28, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * With the caveat that I have yet to visit Dresden, it already looks like a Guide to me. If it's not, an obvious step would be to put Geo coordinates on everything that doesn't yet have them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:18, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, geo coordinates would be useful. Otherwise, the article is complete. --Alexander (talk) 08:34, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I tend to use Google map to get coordinates, for other methods see Listings. Would be good to get this article to the next status. --Traveler100 (talk) 08:31, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * ✅ I believe that, at this point, the article is deserving. Ibaman (talk) 20:27, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

can you really buy tickets from vending machines on buses in Dresden?
"You can buy tickets at yellow ticket vending machines in trams or buses" I thought on buses you buy tickets from the driver Griffindd (talk) 09:30, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
 * That's what I thought, too. Maybe the original wording was "simplified" at some point in time by somebody who didn't check whether the resulting sentence kept making sense. Or somebody made a mistake. At any rate, you can buy tickets from bus drivers at machines and at machines inside trams. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:52, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Racism
Even if we do not mention the Nazi marches and Pegida, I think it bears mentioning that Dresden is more racist than other German half million cities. How do we do that in a tactful and not exaggerating but also not whitewashing way? Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:59, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
 * The article does mention Pegida. My edits only updated the reference to be a past event instead of an ongoing event since they do not seem to be continuing according to what I can find on the web. If you have other information, please revise as appropriate. Ground Zero (talk) 18:13, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

History of aviation in Dresden
With regard to my deletion of the following, and its restoration by User:Hobbitschuster, I think it is worth discussing whether this information is actually useful for travellers like, or is too much detail that gets in the way of the important information, and is boring to most readers. Here is the revision I made to the listing for the Dresden Airport:


 * Most flights to Dresden are charter flights to popular holiday destinations. There are also regular scheduled flights from Basel, Amsterdam Schiphol, Zurich, Moscow and St. Petersburg. Dresden Airport has direct flights — operated by Lufthansa and Eurowings — from major German airports, where you can connect from international or intercontinental flights. Many routes to Dresden have been cancelled and reestablished several times, mostly for economic reasons. There are several flights a day from Frankfurt airport, although a train may be faster if you take wait and transfer times into account. Dresden Airport has struggled since reunification and opening of the borders to Poland and the Czech Republic. A new highway means Dresden now also has to compete with Prague Airport, which has better international connections. The only international route that has had any staying power in the last few years is the one to Moscow. Routes to Milan and London have long since been abandoned. Germania has the most flights to Dresden. However, most of their routes are seasonal. For example flights from Keflavík International Airport (Reykjavik 's main international airport) started in summer 2017 and flights to Athens started in May 2018. Germania also started flying from Barcelona El Prat Airport in 2018 after a previous operator had given up the route it had operated for several years . The airport lists current destinations here.

I think my deletions help travellers find the important information -- who is flying where now -- without having to wade through a history lesson on aviation at Dresden Airport. Goals and non-goals says "Wikivoyage aims to tell people how to travel all over the world, not document everything on the planet or how it ended up that way." I think this is more appropriate for Wikipedia, but maybe it could be moved out of the listing and into a separate history section.

Hobbitschuster argues that "This discussion of history gives an important insight into the "staying power" of different routes and thus serves our readers)."

It would be useful to hear the views of other contributors on this. Comments? Ground Zero (talk) 18:13, 28 September 2018 (UTC)


 * From reading this comment alone, I would prefer to err on the side of brevity and the here and now. But I am interested to read the Hobbit's full argument. Why is the staying power of routes important? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:40, 28 September 2018 (UTC)


 * I think a full discussion of at least some routes - or at the very least the sentence that routes have been canceled in the past - would serve to inform our readers that Dresden airport "struggles" or to put it more bluntly, it is a joke of an airport that serves no conceivable need and if you book a flight from there, you'll always have to take into account that the airline might very well decide not flying there as the route is not booked by enough people. Maybe we could shorten the individual routes that have done the ridiculous "on-off dance" but we should certainly mention the general tendency. If I book a flight to/from Frankfurt Airport, I can be reasonably sure that the flight will still exist next year or at least the airline will still fly to FRA. With Dresden, I cannot even be sure of the airport still be open to anything but general aviation a few years from now... Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:20, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

How about:
 * Most flights to Dresden are charter flights to popular holiday destinations. There are also regular scheduled flights from Basel, Amsterdam Schiphol, Zurich, Moscow and St. Petersburg. Dresden Airport has direct flights — operated by Lufthansa and Eurowings — from major German airports, where you can connect from international or intercontinental flights. There are several flights a day from Frankfurt airport, although a train may be faster if you take wait and transfer times into account.Germania has the most flights to Dresden, but most of their routes are seasonal. International destinations include Reykjavik, Athens, and Barcelona. Because of competition from other airports, the international flights offered change frequently. Check the airport's list of current destinations.

And we add below that:
 * "Czech highway D8 and German autobahn A17 provide a quick route from Prague Airport (150 km away), which has better international connections.

Ground Zero (talk) 05:50, 29 September 2018 (UTC)


 * I think we should also ask and  what they think of this. Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't really want to get drawn into a discussion about this, not least because I'm not familiar with WV policies and don't particularly want to get familiar with them. And usually my main efforts here have been to increase readability, rather than to add "useful information". "Boring" is a very subjective judgement. Me, I find an article containing only "useful information" quite boring. As a trained historian, I usually want to know how things came to be, otherwise I don't have the feeling I can understand what is going on now. When a context is supplied, I can also as a reader make more of my own conclusions rather than having rely only on the conclusions provided directly by the article. That Dresden airport's catchment area is weak economically and that other airports nearby are much bigger are things I would find interesting and useful to know as a traveller. But where or whether such information should be on WV is not a judgement I want to make. Griffindd (talk)


 * I don't have an opinion about this particular example, but in general, if you give very brief and nicely-written history, it's less likely that someone will delete it and more likely that someone would revert a deletion. But I think in the case of an airport that doesn't merit its own article, any historical information should be brief indeed, and if anyone wants to know more, there should be a link to the Wikipedia article about the airport in its listing template, so anyone could read such details there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:04, 30 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia does not contain the information which routes were canceled when and the pretty obvious judgment call that Dresden Airport is "struggling" and too close to more major airports for its own good would likely be considered "POV" and "original research" on WP. Here it is of obvious value to tell travelers, that DRS is a rather marginal airport and routes to and from it do not tend to have staying power (with the possible exception of the Russian routes due to Russians shopping in Dresden quite a bit). Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:31, 30 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia does have some information on routes (see the discussion on City Link), and there is no reason it couldn't have more. Letting travellers know that our route information is subject to change is useful, but the history of airlines routes isn't needed to explain that. This isn't a history article that requires providing evidence to support conclusions, or references to support the evidence. It is a travel article about how to get around and what to see. I will quote our policy again, "Wikivoyage aims to tell people how to travel all over the world, not document everything on the planet or how it ended up that way." I see no particular reason for the Dresden article to deviate from Wikivoyage policy on this matter. Ground Zero (talk) 17:44, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

As this discussion has run out if steam, I implemented the proposal above, and re-added this discussion of the airport's struggle: "Many routes to Dresden have been cancelled and reestablished several times, mostly for economic reasons." I really don't think that that listing flights that travellers cannot take is helpful. Ground Zero (talk) 15:30, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Dresden Tram routes
Can we get the Tram Routes to show up on the dynamic map? Preferably in the right color? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:09, 24 January 2019 (UTC)