Talk:Chinese cuisine in the San Francisco Bay Area

Um, this really doesn't fall under a destination page (see What is an article? for more details)-- maybe it's a travel topic page, but even for that I think it would have to be reworked. Any comments or suggestions on what to do with this? But I'm going to move it ASAP. (WT-en) Majnoona 01:38, 2 Feb 2004 (EST)


 * OK, just trying to move this page convinced me that it really doesn't fall within our goals and non-goals. Someone have an argument as to how this fits in? It just doesnt seem travel related, and certainly not San Francisco specific. (WT-en) Majnoona 01:41, 2 Feb 2004 (EST)

This is specifically a San Francisco page
This page is specifically intended to discuss challenges that people from other places who have visited Chinese restaurant in those other places may face when visiting Chinese restaurants in the San Francisco Bay Area.

I acknowledge that there may be some overlap with other North American cities which have large and recent Cantonese immigration (New York, Sacramento, Vancouver, Los Angeles), but the content as I envision it specifically applies to San Francisco.

In any case it is not useful as a general introduction to Amercan Chinese food, as many of the categories, as well as some of the characteristics of the categories, do not apply to Chinese food in nearly all of the US outside of the specific places mentioned above. (WT-en) Notty


 * I like this idea, but a page specifically on Chinese food in San Francisco is probably too fine-grained for inclusion in our travel guide. It may be a good idea to include a paragraph or so in San Francisco or Bay Area (California), but I agree with Maj that this article either needs to become a travel topic on the more general concept, or be included in a smaller form on another page. (Possibly in the description of individual restaurants...?). --(WT-en) Evan 13:13, 2 Feb 2004 (EST)

I'm asserting that I'm the one who wrote the article so far. I grok the idea that this is too fine-grained for Wikivoyage. At the same time, it is the article that I want to write. May I request this article be deleted, so that I can post it where it will be welcome? (WT-en) Notty


 * I did find this article a bit odd. :) In Wikipedia, the article by the same name is one that mocks bad American versions of Chinese food. (WT-en) Fuzheado 00:25, 3 Feb 2004 (EST)


 * I doubt that the article is going to stay in its current form for long, but if you want the entry "American Chinese food" deleted, please post it on Project:votes for deletion, and it'll be gone in 7 days, barring objections. Well, I hope this hasn't soured you on the whole Wikivoyage experience, and that once you publish this article elsewhere, you continue to contribute. --(WT-en) Evan 02:07, 3 Feb 2004 (EST)


 * As you can see, I have decided not to try to delete it. I hope people will discuss both the page and the concept. (WT-en) Notty 02:13, Feb 5, 2004 (EST)

Good, I think we're getting somewhere. I just got back here from Wikipedia where I read the article you mention. It appears that most of my current article belongs in the Wikipedia, linked from the American Chinese Food article. However, I believe any correspondence between neighborhoods and types of Chinese food (for example traditional Sinicized Western food is found only in SF Chinatown, while modern Sinicized Chinese food can be also found in SF Richmond, SF Sunset, and Millbrae), or lists of restaurants serving a particular type of Chinese food, would seem to belong over here. Certainly I agree that reviews of particular restaurants belong over here. I believe this could be solved with suitable cross-linking.

There is a larger issue that the organization of Wikivoyage is hierarchical by State/City/Neighborhood. This means that I have to look at each neighborhood to find out what kind of Chinese food can be found there (or Afghan, etc). Would it be in the spirit of Wikivoyage to add an Eat section to San Francisco Bay Area where might be included somewhere in that section sentences like: "Modern Sinicized Chinese food can be found in San Francisco/Richmond, San Francisco/Sunset, and Millbrae." "Authentic Indian food is found in Fremont and in Pakistani restaurants in San Francisco/Tenderloin" etc.?

So, a review of San Francisco's only Musim Chinese restaurant would belong in the Sunset neighborhood where it is, but would be linked to from this article. If someone doesn't even know that San Francisco has a Muslim restaurant, and had no interest in going to the Sunset otherwise, how would they discover it? (Unless they are Muslim and are specifically searching for food which follows Islamic law.)

Finally, I'm concerned that the link from San Francisco that I orginally used to make this page has been removed, making this page an orphan. Obviously, some people are finding this page and commenting on it. Still, I'm concerned that people who might be interested in discussing whether this article is too granular won't see it to be able to discuss it. Unless I've been locked out from changing this, presumably I could add it back (and change the title back to San Francisco/Guidelines for choosing a Chinese restaurant). However, I don't want to get into an edit war.

I've just looked at the goals and slippery slope articles, and don't see where granularity is a non-goal. I do see from the slippery slope article that I need to only list or review restaurants I would recommend (which means that I won't be listing or reviewing any Americanized Chinese restaurants, although others might). I'd therefore like to respecfully suggest that this article be allowed to exist on Wikivoyage under its original name (or something similar) rather than being mostly moved to Wikipedia (would also solve the issue of copyright differences between the two sites, as well as the issue of cross-linking) (WT-en) Notty

The story so far
A. I was mistaken about the link being deleted from San Francisco. It appears from that page's history, as well as the orphans page, to be a bug. I will report it. (done)

B. Main comments against this page by other than me to date:
 * not about SF (was posted while I was still creating page)
 * not aligned with goals (con)
 * some confusion over the title (neutral)
 * nice, but too granular (pro and con)

What I am going to do for now:
 * 1) Rename the page to Bay Area (California)/Localized Chinese cuisine (done)
 * 2) Link to it from Bay Area (California) and San Francisco (done)
 * 3) Add a related restaurant review to a San Francisco restaurant.
 * 4) Make one cross-link between that review and this page, to demonstrate the utility.
 * 5) Make only minimal grammar and organizational changes to this page until further discussion reaches a consensus (of course, others can edit the page).
 * 6) Raise the granularity question in the Travellers' pub (done)

(WT-en) Notty 01:13, Feb 4, 2004 (EST)

Why this page moved
So, I've moved this page, since we don't use sub-pages for anything but districts within a city. --(WT-en) Evan 11:32, 5 Feb 2004 (EST)

SF vs. West Coast
Seems to me that this could usefully be broadened to West Coast of North America. Most of the same considerations apply in any West Coast city. The only thing specific to each city would be individual restaurants. -- (WT-en) Jmabel 19:26, 9 Feb 2004 (EST)


 * My take (which could be wrong) is that Chinese food is different in the Bay Area. Maybe it is also true of LA, especially places like Monterey Park, or Vancouver, but I was unable to find suitable Chinese food in Portland or Monterey. It is entirely possible I don't know where to look. (WT-en) Notty 02:18, Feb 10, 2004 (EST)

Article or Travel topic?
swept in from pub:

Well is this a travel topic or an article?;Chinese cuisine in the San Francisco Bay Area. Article needs some attention and organizing. -(WT-en) SnappyHip 22:31, 12 March 2010 (GST).
 * "Travel topics" are one of three subsets of "articles", so the answer is "it's both". (WT-en) LtPowers 13:53, 12 March 2010 (EST)
 * Oh Ok, but that article really needs organizing. Thanks :). Have a nice day. -(WT-en) SnappyHip 22:58, 12 March 2010
 * I really don't know why we even have articles like that. A trimmed down version of that could easily fit in the Eat section of San Francisco or the Bay Area. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 14:13, 13 March 2010 (EST)
 * I agree. A large portion of that article is empty formatting. (WT-en) Texugo 23:36, 13 March 2010 (EST)
 * There are quite a few of that nature. Might not be a bad idea for a COTM - merging all undeveloped travel topics into proper articles. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 04:59, 14 March 2010 (EDT)
 * That article is so old the chow mein's got hair on it (created February 2004!) -- it should long since have been swallowed up into San Fran itself. (WT-en) Jpatokal 07:18, 15 March 2010 (EDT)
 * Merged and redirected. (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 14:42, 20 March 2010 (EDT)